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National Youth Circuit Champs - £1600 prizes
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Is £500 too much to pay out on one youth race?
yes
55%
 55%  [ 11 ]
no
45%
 45%  [ 9 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Plurien
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PostPosted: Tue May 25, 2010 9:05 pm    Post subject: National Youth Circuit Champs - £1600 prizes Reply with quote

Saturday 24th July
Hog Hill circuit in Outer E London
Full card of separate youth circuit races at or near max distance
Finish camera, top judging team, experienced commissaires
Superb purpose-built facility
Event hosted by leading youth C C
£1600+ cash prizes across the card
Events filling up nicely

Get your entry in well before the closing date or expect disappointment

All entry and riders list info through the website ONLY:-

http://londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com
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BryanTaylor
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PostPosted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to your question, I'd say it depends how far down you're paying to. I assume £500 is total prize fund for one of the events - if you pay the first 10 or even 20 riders as they do in Belgium then it's not too much at all - any U16 girls event must pay a minimum of 250euros for example out there.

For a national champs, I'm not convinced a big cash 1st prize is important, nationals should be about medals & jersey primarily, not money.

Otherwise if you have a sponsor prepared to give you £500 cash, I'd suggest it would be better spent if you keep it for now & use it to help fund the costs of running a youth stage race at HH next year with the sponsor getting title rights & probably a better advertising return on their money. That'd do more for youth racing than funding ipods for a few kids. The Youth Tour that the Schils mob used to run was really popular & IIRC died when BC decided it couldn't be in the National Series anymore & Schills couldn't justify doing it then, but that rule seems to have been reversed again. The only youth stage races are now in Isle of Man which with the timing of it is out the question for most kids in SE area, or the NW Tour, also miles away.
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good points made there, Bryan and I agree with most, having already thought of a similar idea and gone quite a way along with some elements.

Prizes in a long tail down to tenth place.
Prize list: http://londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com/#/sponsors-prizes/4535587918

Meantime;-
YOUTH CHAMPIONSHIPS PAST WINNERS

Under 16 MEN
Year Gold Silver Bronze
1999 Ross Edgar Thomas White Philip Law
2000 Matthew Brammeier Adam Duggleby Mark Cavendish
2001 Geraint Thomas Andrew Gough Peter Richardson
2006 Tomas Skubala Andrew Fenn Benjamin Plain
2005 Adam Blythe Mark McNally Benjamin Plain
2003 ? Andrew Tennant
2004 Mark McNally Jonathan Bellis Jonathan McEvoy
2007 Alexander King Kian Emadi Matthew Bailey
2008 Lewis Balyckyi Simon Yates Mark Baxter
2009 Sam Lowe James Berryman Joshua Papworth

Under 16 WOMEN
Year Gold Silver Bronze
1999 Claire Dixon Clara Beard Laura Wasley
2000 Samantha Ashford Kimberley Walsh Laura Wasley
2001 Nikki Harris Katherine Hill Abby Jackson
2002 Kimberley Blythe Abby Jackson Jo Tindley
2003 Kimberley Blythe Katie Curtis Jo Tindley
2004 Katie Curtis Jessica Stoddart Emma Trott
2006 Hannah Mayho Helen Clayton Katie Colclough
2007 Laura Trott Corrine Hall Sarah Reynolds
2008 Hannah Barnes Harriet Owen Laura Trott
2009 Hannah Barnes Lucy Garner Hannah Manley

 Under 14 WOMEN
Year Gold Silver Bronze
2000 Kimberley Blythe Marianna Burrell Victoria Burrell
2003 Lucy Richards Alex Greenfield Jessica Stoddart
2004 Greta Junker Sarah Reynolds Amy Gallacher
2006 Laura Trott Harriet Owen Penny Rowson
2007 Harriet Owen Hannah Barnes Lucy Garner
2008 Lucy Garner Emily Kay Melissa Bury
2009 Emily Barnes Emily Kay Angela Eggleton

 Under 14
Year Gold Silver Bronze
1999 Mark Cavendish ? Samuel Relf
2000 Geraint Thomas Ben Crawforth Sammy Cotton
2001 Philip Gough Lewis Atkins Jonathon Mozley
2003 Tony Lock Adam Blythe Bonar Lizaitis
2004 Alex Aldham-Breary William Penn Joss Bentley
2006 Daniel Mclay Samuel Fry Lewis Balyckyi
2007 Joshua Papworth Jonathan Dibben Jordan Hargreaves
2008 Jonathan Dibben Harry Tanfield Sam Lowe
2009 Daniel Maslin Germain Burton Christopher Lawless
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Zarate
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 01, 2010 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point about the money, spread down seems OK. A stage race at Hog Hill would be interesting, too!
Nationals should be about the jersey and medals, any cash prizes a bonus. It's part of a general trend where the prize list seems to be a be-all and end-all, and for most riders it's academic anyway as they never win much if anything. Much better to spend money on promotion, publicity to get a decent crowd in, and for road races safety, than worry about a few quid for 10th. place, for example.
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 04, 2010 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

National Youth Circuit Championships - Large prize-list and Full entry

Saturday 24 July will see a great day of racing for all youth categories on the sporting 2km circuit at Hog Hill. I've had to start limiting entries to the Youth A men's race because so many riders want a start. Other races are filling out nicely too.

Over 225 riders have now entered the championships and it's certain that the under 16 men's race will be full to bursting. The last few under 16 yr-old places will go only to top-ranked riders. They have all been invited through their clubs to enter at the event website at http://www.londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com . The Youth A race will close to entries before the published deadline of 3 July.

The under 16 yr-old men's race will be contested up the 'Hoggenberg', racing anti-clockwise on the full circuit. All other championships will also be using the full 2km loop, but going clockwise. £515 cash prizes and £120 of vouchers from sponsors Bike & Run will be claimed by the top 10 in this one race, but of course the major accolade of the title and jersey awaits the winner. Defending champion Sam Lowe - Raleigh RT - will hope to extend his reign as national champion, having taken a fine first-year sprint win on the flat at Hillingdon last year.

The youth B men's race for under 14 yr-olds is likely to fill next. It is this championship title that was claimed by Mark Cavendish in 1999 and by Geraint Thomas in 2000. More recently Daniel McLay took the win in 2006. Prizes totalling over £250, including prize vouchers from sponsors Mosquito Bikes are for the taking too.

The women's racing will be no less attractive with over 20 riders in each separate Youth A and B championships, and more yet to come. These races carry prize lists worth over £540, but again it's the quality and quantity of racers all in one place which makes winning a National Champion's jersey so special.

The under 12 yr-olds' Championship races will be honestly raced out on the full 2km circuit. Over 40 riders have entered so far, with many more attracted by the thought of winning the National Champion's jersey at the very first opportunity on a circuit which does not give winners an easy ride.

Support events for u8 and u10 riders will give them a taste of what's to come. These races will be run using Lee Valley Youth CC usual formats to produce some great races at the end of a busy day.

Hog Hill regulars will be interested to see how this year's championship races play out when they go up against so many first-time visitors. The sporting circuit leaves little opportunity for hiding in the bunch and with race lengths set near to the maximum this year's championships are guaranteed good viewing and good racing. The purpose-built facility offers a worthy environment for such a busy and prestigious event.

Any rider who wants to take a good look at Hog Hill before the big day will find there are race events* and a Regional School of Racing** organised at Hog Hill before the 2010 National Championships on 24 July.

The fact-filled National Championships website is also the place where entered riders are invited to take a guess at which Tour de France riders will be in each of its jerseys on the day of the races. Best guesses win cash and vouchers from Mosquito Bikes and Bike & Run. Entry to the National Championships and to this fun competition both close on 3 July. As any Tour rider will tell you: A lot can happen in three weeks, so youth contenders in all age categories should make sure of an entry straight away by going to the website http://www.londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com

*Rapha Condor LVYCC Series:
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/BC/Bridge/calendar_future.asp?evt_cp=1&evt_mode=0&evt_id=&evt_seriesid=&evt_myevents=No&RefID=&RefType=&evt_month=All&evt_kw=rapha&evt_regions=All+Regions&evt_disc=&evt_class=&evt_cat=&evt_series=&evt_resultspp=20

**School of Racing at Redbridge:
http://new.britishcycling.org.uk/risingstars/article/roa20100519-School-of-Racing-at-Redbridge-0
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Thomo
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plurien wrote:
Saturday 24 July will see a great day of racing for all youth categories on the sporting 2km circuit at Hog Hill. I've had to start limiting entries to the Youth A men's race because so many riders want a start. Other races are filling out nicely too.

Over 225 riders have now entered the championships and it's certain that the under 16 men's race will be full to bursting. The last few under 16 yr-old places will go only to top-ranked riders. They have all been invited through their clubs to enter at the event website at http://www.londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com . The Youth A race will close to entries before the published deadline of 3 July.
As I'm sure you will know, what you are proposing here regarding rider entry and acceptance is not allowed. At all. It's in BC Tech regs how you select riders and it's not how you are saying here. You do not have the option of choosing it otherwise. See the other thread for George Gilbert's reply to one of your posts.

Paul
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Hans Datdodishes
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomo wrote:
Plurien wrote:
Saturday 24 July will see a great day of racing for all youth categories on the sporting 2km circuit at Hog Hill. I've had to start limiting entries to the Youth A men's race because so many riders want a start. Other races are filling out nicely too.

Over 225 riders have now entered the championships and it's certain that the under 16 men's race will be full to bursting. The last few under 16 yr-old places will go only to top-ranked riders. They have all been invited through their clubs to enter at the event website at http://www.londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com . The Youth A race will close to entries before the published deadline of 3 July.
As I'm sure you will know, what you are proposing here regarding rider entry and acceptance is not allowed. At all. It's in BC Tech regs how you select riders and it's not how you are saying here. You do not have the option of choosing it otherwise. See the other thread for George Gilbert's reply to one of your posts.

Paul


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Plurien
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See http://www.veloriders.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=1194239#1194239 for 'controversial' discussion of the national youth circuits.
Factual information for riders remains here
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De Rosa
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have always wondered why we pay cash prizes in a predominantly amateur sport. They don't do it in cricket and football etc etc and yet everyone moans about the cost of entry fees etc. And to pay cash prizes to kids seems even stranger to me. I would much rather see lower entry fees if that's what worries people and fewer (cash) prizes for minor events and for major events - such as nationals and nationally important races - to get medals, engraved trophies to keep etc.

Having said I have just finished my race programme for the Solihull National Youth Circuit Race series and we have a £350 cash prize list plus trophies - but it just seems strange to pay young kids this money and get them into the habit of racing for money. The money would be better spent on running more events or keeping our elite riders going somehow. Or even taking them to races such as the IOM weekend and Belgium for racing experience.

PS I also have over 225 riders for the Solihull event - a nice problem to have but a problem when you start having to turn kids away from races which is a great shame and which no one wants. But what a great indication of how the sport is picking up in UK for young riders. We have loads of girls entered as well to make it highly competitive for them instead of just slogging around being "often" beaten by the boys.
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Magnier
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Price of riding a bike quite a bit much higher than a pair of football boots or cricket bat.

Even a small amount of prize money quite an insentive to youths.
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BryanTaylor
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 05, 2010 11:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but parents on the whole pay for bike & entry fees & the kids keep the prize money!

the prize money is probably more of an issue when you move up to junior/espoir & entries are starting to cost a lot more & so are other areas like uni.

I don't think it's a bad thing for U16's to get cash prizes as they're the age group we really need to work to keep in the sport & the age group where money really means something. The occasional good prize gives a real incentive to keep plugging away rather than maybe consider a saturday job. Seen a few kids over the years getting saturday jobs which tend to pay a pittance & it's the 1st step to them losing interest in racing, as not surprisingly they have less time to train & race. I can remember the parent of a rider who is now a pro saying in his opinion racing the bike was the equivilant of a part time job so was happy to support his kids further than perhaps he needed to rather than push them towards getting a part time job whilst they were racing fairly seriously.

Guy - I've seen the prize list for your event & I agree with what you say above- I really can't see the point of you paying the youngest age cats prize money - is £5 really that special to a youth E? You've done the best thing of all, which is get trophies for the top 3 in each category, & that's what the youngest riders will treasure far more.

I love the fact that when I take the girls to race in belgium, if we get a winner, they often get a decent trophy (to keep) & a huge bouquet of flowers whatever the race. Although in saying that, the prize money in belgium is nearly always better, but then they have many advantages sponsorship wise. But their policy with prize money is more towards rewarding many riders with something rather than just the top few, the top few get the trophy/flowers & often proper podium too.
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dockeca
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a couple of things here.
First well done to Michael for getting such good support.
Second I go along with Guy (De Rosa), some trophies are great kepsakes, and large amonts of cash not always needed. As a promoter of excellent races at junior level and younger, his opinion and ideas are worth reading.
Third Bryan has an interesting view, the prize list needs to spread as far down as is practical (provided there is photo finish!!), with a good lump of money down to 20th on a %age basis works nicely. Winner 20% down to single figures for 16th-20th is one method which I've used on those times when I've been lucky enough to find substantial money to run a race.

Anyway, all the best for a great days racing and worthy champions.
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Doc
I take your points well and would like to be able to spread the prizes down to 20th but it's economics coming into play.
It's a personal thing as a promoter that I try not to pay prizes that are less than the entry cost, but even with a field like this and a levy at only £1-50 per rider that's impossible to do below tenth if you want to keep a differential.
In the women's u16 race prizes go like this from 1st down to 10th:
55 40 30 20 15 15 10 10 8 8
- That adds up to £211. Entry costs £15 and it doesn't take a genius to work out with 20 riders that £300 has been paid in.

To work out the prizes I took last year's champs and counted the entries in each category. I then applied a percentage of total take at this year's entry cost and ran this into the table I'm using to split the prize money across the first ten in each cat. So the split for each cat is as proportional. u16 Men's race pays out £515 like this;
135 90 70 55 35 35 30 25 20 20
- and since there are more entries the percentage for 10th brings it above the cost of entry (just)
BTW - It's handier to round prize amounts so you're dealing with less coin, esp on pre-entry races.

I will be doing a trophy of a kind. Previously I found a good way was to appoint an event photographer and get them to pay for their pitch by providing a framed pic of each rider who made it to the podium. Don't seem to be able to find one this year (any offers?) so I will be doing a framed 'certificate' saying where the podium-placed riders came. ...And they get a BC medal of course, plus jersey for the winner. We may dig deeper to do flowers for the women (boys just get embarrassed and they really do prefer cash)

I have written to quite a number of national enterprises who have each given a reason for wishing the event well - and for not providing anything, not even a promotional item to go in a goody-bag in return for a presence at the event or just the pleasure of supporting it. This seems quite strange to someone who has seen marketing-oriented media organisations debate how to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on totally ephemeral and unmeasurable opportunities. And yes, I wrote to a good number of obvious bike brands who are still welcome to show their support in the full and certain knowledge that brand loyalties are formed and pretty well immutable by the early teenage years.

By the time we take circuit hire, commissaire and first aid, levies and all oher costs into account there really will not be a lot left. We made a decision to put up cash because it's an immediate incentive with universal appeal and we front-loaded our guess at what we would end up with as entry money.

Now if BC or somebody would like to put up a perpetual trophy that would be a step forwards. We have had these in the house from cyclocross and I can tell you it's a wonderful thing to have the illustrious past winners' names for your young rider to polish when the relatives are coming round to tap-up for pocket money.
- Imagine how good you'd feel as a 14 yr-old having won a trophy to find Mark Cavendish had it before you?!
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T12OTT
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plurien wrote:
In the women's u16 race prizes go like this from 1st down to 10th: 55 40 30 20 15 15 10 10 8 8

u16 Men's race pays out £515 like this; 135 90 70 55 35 35 30 25 20 20


So why does the winner of the Mens race get 9x their entry fee and the Women only 3.6x?

Do me a favour and don't say its the size of the field! Yes the lads will have a bigger field so thats why more of them should get a prize.

If you went for equality at the top end of the prize list (winner £55) you could give the lads prizes down to 20th and even top up a couple of the Womens prizes.

At the recent CTT 10 mile Championship awards to the top three only £80, £40, £20 but for all categories Men Women and Juniors plus a single award of £80 for the first female junior - equality
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T12OTT
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of a perpetual trophy the WRCA, which has now been disbanded, may have one they could donate for the U16 Women.

I think Bryan still has some contacts with them
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that - I'll ask Bryan.
Any more out there? We know there was a splendid plaque with many riders' names on it which went with BSCA but that hasn't been seen. Anyone 'fess up its whereabouts? It would be great to get something going here.
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BryanTaylor
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll talk to Ann about the girl's trophy - I've been helping her to get a few trophies back recently so might be able to persuade her to donate one. I'm surprised there isn't one already TBH as the event has been running a number of years now
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BryanTaylor
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WCRA are happy to donate a trophy. As they're given out at the dinner normally rather than the event, I'll talk to Paul West about getting it all sorted out.
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2010 10:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Biggest field in National Youth Circuit Championships for many years.

British Cycling National Youth Circuit Championships
- Saturday 24 July, Hog Hill, London Borough of Redbridge.

Entries have reached 300 riders! Thank you to everyone who has made an entry... and if you haven't got round to it yet there is just time.

We are guaranteed to be on the maximum for Youth A Men, entry for which was frozen on 4 June to leave space for any top ranked rider who makes full entry up to the 3 July deadline.

All other races can still expand on number of entries so make sure your entry goes in through the webste.
You will not see larger youth races anywhere. Full list of riders will be published on the website by end of 3 July. There is no entry later on.
http://londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com

Looking at rankings against the number of entries, this is guaranteed to be the best field in any youth race in any category this year.
Quality of racing is up to the riders, but with major cash prizes, jerseys, at least one perpetual trophy and medals on offer they won't be lacking in incentive.
Of course the superb facility and circuit at Hog Hill makes it more special and demanding for all who contest the national championships. Its climbs and turns will be a challenge for all, whether they are regular locals or distant visitors.
All championship events will run on the full 2km circuit by special arrangement to produce worthy championships winners. Every rider taking part will receive a commemorative medal.

A lovely podium is being specially made for the promotion by Service Graphics. Generous cash prizes of over £1600 are augmented with vouchers from top London dealers Bike & Run and Mosquito Bikes. Club support of host club Lee Valley Youth CC generously offered by by Lee Valley Regional Park

We are really looking forward to a great day of youth racing.
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Plurien
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is how many are in each race:-

30 Youth A Women
100 Youth A Men
32 Youth B Women
55 Youth B Men
13 Youth C Women
50 Youth C Men
26 Youth D (support race)
14 Youth E (support race)

320 riders total.

There wee 11 riders that had to be turned away from the Youth A Men's race. - Sorry.
When did you last see a youth race this big in the UK?!

This is going to be massive! (And pleeeaase no stupid riding errors by anyone... I'd rather pay 1st aid and not have to use them)

Full list on the website http://www.londonchamps2010.moonfruit.com
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