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Single UK Body for Cycling?
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Would one body be better for UK Cycling?
Yes
70%
 70%  [ 14 ]
No
30%
 30%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 20

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Brian Cookson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello again Mr Guest. Sorry if I only picked on the frivolous bits of your posting. I can assure you that British Cycling would like to have more members, in fact we have set ourselves a target of *CENSORED* by 2012. We are looking at all sorts of ways of achieving that, including the ones you mention. There have been a number of previous attempts at linking bike sales to membership, for instance, but they have not been successful, for a variety of reasons.

We run incentive schemes from time to time and these have been pretty successful in the last couple of years, though not without their critics (see previous threads on here). Membership is now on an upward trend, after falling below 14,000 five or so years ago, we are now close to 18,000, which is not a bad rate of growth. However, we'll have to do much better to reach our target.

However, with the rolling out of our Start programmes to recruit youngsters, the work we are doing to review the road racing calendar, and the new road race leagues that are springing up around the country on the Surrey model, plus the work we are doing to support new facilities across the country, then I'm reasonably confident that we are moving in the right direction.

But all this takes a lot of time and a lot of effort from a lot of people, not just national officials or staff at BChq.

Or alternatively of course, you can adopt the attitude of Pete Ryalls, as in Cycling Weekly this week, that nothing is being done, the sport is a disaster zone, and its all British Cycling's fault. The old saying that there are none so blind as those who will not see, comes to mind.....

Hope this is a more adequate response to your comments Mr Guest, but I ask again, what's the big deal with the anonymity?

Brian.
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ChrisB
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Event finances Reply with quote

Richard Kennedy wrote:
Do you check the finances for every event you enter? If so you will find that there are also huge gaps in finances for events run under BCF rules.

There are also organisers out there who do run events to make a profit (often for club funds).


Oh come on. How many BCF events can you name that make a profit? Not many, I bet. If it was such a money-spinner, we'd see a lot more races on the calendar...
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Des
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't care whether the organisation / club make a profit, I just want to know that the licensing body is viable and that my membership won't disappear halfway throughthe season and that the insurance cover isn't likey to disappear if I need it?
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Gary K
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't check where the finances from every race I enter go, of course i don't, but I ride BC sanctioned events 99.9% of the time and the clubs that organise them are BC affiliated, so any "profit" going back into that club will generally be to the good and benefit of the BC via the actions of the club.

If TLI organise an event, and they organise lots, where does all the profit go? Not to help BC or UK cycling I bet? Granted that BC affiliated clubs might organise events under TLI reg's but that should definitely be the exception and shame on them for doing so. There is nothing the BC can't provide for in terms of flexibility and what you want from an event than what TLI can offer.

The only difference is cost of membership. Most TLI events cost about the same, or more than BC events and you definitely get what you pay for, not just in terms of the quality of the event, but knowing what your BC money is going towards in running the sport for the advancement of cycling in the UK.

Now if TLI were to advocate some kind of development plan for youths, juniors or something along the lines of the Dave Raynor fund to send talented 18-23 year olds abroad, then we may have less of an argument.

Some may say the Surrey League is a stand alone body, but all their events are BC and they send riders to many of the major races in the UK and some abroad as well as being the best organised body when it comes to womens training and racing coaching thanks to John Leitch and his band of helpers.

I believe TLI exist to get up the noses of BC by being the "Alternative" body, but if people continued demanding answers to very simple questions, like what profits and where does it go, what insurance cover do we actually get from joining and racing with them, do their insurance company know they allow people to race with non-confoming helmets (the hairnet type), then they may think twice about joining.

They don't have a web site, their info/rule book is of a poor standard, they are only interested in generating self interest, they are unwilling (or unable) to communicate with the other governing bodies, they allow proven *CENSORED* cheats to compete in their events, the list goes on!

BC may have its faults, but believe me they will only get better with backing from more sensible, reliable and willing volunteers.

As for the LVRC man, Pete Ryalls comments, fine, easy to knock, but what are the solutions? Is he trying to get on the BC board to change things if he feels so strongly? What does the LVRC do to develop or include grass roots and elite level riders? I see them as a stand alone body that exists to exclude all but those over 40 for their own purposes. Why not run your races under BC? Is it that much more difficult? What are your plans to stop the general cyclist versus motorists arguement from being car driver biased?

There are many things that BC do not do well and could do better at, but before criticising, stand up and be counted yourselves! Ask yourself "What am I doing to improve our lot?", "How can I make things better for our club/area/league/region?", "Do I attend meetings representing my club to try and implement change?" Or "Do I just stand around bumping my gums about how bad BC are treating us and that everything is rubbish?"

I'll never knock anyone for trying and BC are certainly trying to improve the lot for UK cyclists as well as producing world class athletes that are winning world class medals and titles. Balance what they don't do against what they are trying to do and I know which way the scales start to tip.

Anyone who expects everything to just happen and be all rosey in the garden without the breakaway factions attempting to come into line so we can all pull in the same direction is sorely mistaken and probably deluding themselves.

Ask the basic questions - Why do the LVRC/TLI exist? What is their purpose/aims? What are their future aspirations? How do they benefit UK cycling at all/any levels. Why will they not join with BC? It is like the situation in Northern Ireland, and I have a lot of experience of that. It started off because of territory and religious beliefs, but now it is all about money, power and being a "name". Try and take that away (The peace process) and yet more factions arise because people do not want to be ordinary members of society, they want to retain their status and authority, they are scared of being disempowered.

The longer we have "alternative" bodies the more harm will be done to BC, UK cycling in general and the general perception of cycling by Joe Public. One group, one common aim.
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legro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary, I have raced some TLI events at Eastway and North Weald aerodrome. The way I am looking at this is, without the TLI organising these events there simply would not have been any races like these in my region.

The profit in these races were used both as prize money and to put back into TLI future events, why would it go to the BC?
The TLI development plan like their rules, is plan and simple, there is no age limit nor is the any category however the categories as we know them are sorted on the day. The kids are split up into age and abilities and the same with the seniors and vets. Whats wrong with that? I see it as a form of development for the kids because they are racing in a what would be non race situation if the event was not on.
At North Weald the kids get regular racing every week with prize money in a very well organised series. Everyone pulls together, mum, dads friends and officials.
Without the TLI for these races there would have been no racing for anybody in our area.
I am not patronising you as I know you are well aware of this, but in my opinion the TLI should be reconised and work with BC but BC will not accept them I am lead to believe.
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BryanT
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Out of interest, what's stopping either of them being organised under BC rules rather than TLI? Is it that they'd cost a lot more & the organiser wants to offer low cost racing, or was it in the case of Eastway that the organisers had fallen out with BC (I can't remember if that's the reason or not so don't sue me for libel) as the Thursday series certainly was a BC event until recently.
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Gary K
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair points Dave, but why can they not be run in the same format under BC rules? Maybe this is a BC problem, so BC, answer please!

If the organiser is unwilling to organise under BC rules and reg's I have to ask why is that? Fundamentally people want to race and if points and/or prize money is on offer then they will be happy, so why have a breakaway faction when it is just so easy to have one?

I am not saying TLI have to do all the changing, BC have a case to answer in order to allow for every format of racing and have a flexible enough points system to accommodate them.

Cost may be the issue as TLI membership is cheaper than BC, but as has been suggested before, what about a reduced membership fee to bring into line the benefits for those members that don't want the full package to just take the reduced or racing only option?

BC

Can you adopt a TLI approach to racing, ie age groups

Can you accommodate a reduced fee for a reduced package? (is this feasible?)

Surely if the person organising North Weald, etc was do do it under the auspices of BC, with mums, dads, friends, etc helping out it would enhance the appeal to others for contributing to one body?

I'm sorry but I still see it as direct opposition to BC regardless of what they do or don't do. It is down to personalities that decide to do it under TLI instead of BC.
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legro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am not sure if I am 100% correct here, but the TLI was set up to encourage us to race with less rules, less affiliation fees, less entry fee and more open for all to ride. Maybe BC are jealous I don't know? All I do know is it is a no fuss no nonsence organisation that wants a race put on. It is the same as the BC coaching structure not recognising ABBC coaches anymore. They are making a rod for themselves instead of working together with any organisation.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, Legro, you certainly made a good case for a second body for novice racing ealier.

I suppose BC may argue they can't have two different standards of organising rules or something.

Last week at a race, two 10 year olds came up and asked if they could join in before the start. I laughed and said no. (don't wanna see 10 year olds beating elites, do we)?

But on reflection, here was a couple of kids who wanted to try it. 'Hey you gotta join a club, go to a circuit etc' makes it sound difficult to them.

Dunno if ESCA is still going. Is the BC Start thing trying to do something like that? When those kids get to 15, they probably won't have done a race and just buy a car.

Brian Vee
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Brian Cookson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is no reason whatsoever why any race organised under TLI cannot be run under BC rules. So far as I am aware the only differences are that we insist on a proper crash hat and we don't let under 16s ride in races on the open road.

Oh yeah, and we don't allow people who are suspended for doping to compete in our national championships (oops, a little bit of controversy there).

So come on TLI, give the readers of veloriders website some answers to the very serious questions raised here. Or are we to assume the worst?

Brian.
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legro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't beleive you said that Brian. The TLI have changed their rules for not allowing anybody suspended from "other" bodies to compete. I have said nothing up until now regarding all the slaging off the TLI have had. All I know is and I repeat myself they put on races for to compete to encourage us to race with less rules, less affiliation fees, less entry fee and more open for all to ride, what is wrong with that?
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Brian Cookson
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Dave that was not directed at you. I believe the TLI have changed their rules to recognise other bodies' suspensions, if they consider them reasonable, so that's at least one slightly grudging step in the right direction.

My point was that they don't do anything that couldn't be done under BC rules. They choose to run their events outside BC sanctions, points systems, insurance, etc., and that's up to them - it's a free country.

Maybe some of their costs are a bit cheaper, but as GaryK and others have pointed out before, what do they put back? If cycling wants to carry on being a backwoods sport organised on the cheap and cutting corners in various ways then fine, go the TLI way and save a few bob, but are you sure of what you're getting for your money anyway?

Now it seems they won't even answer the most basic of questions about their finances, structure and so on. If British Cycling carried on like that Cycling Weekly would be full of it, and they'd talk of nothing else in clubrooms and cafes up and down the land! I can't believe you TLI members and riders are letting them get away with it!

I repeat, come on John Williams and others, give the readers of veloriders, some answers! Surely it's not that difficult?

Brian
(Why do I feel I'm wasting my time......!?).
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legro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah come on John it's me against the World here Shocked
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John Williams
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:26 pm    Post subject: Post Subject Reply with quote

We, in the North-West have just had a series of 10, 22.5km SPOCO Time Trials, the events were organised by a TLI member under TLI rules.
The entry fee - Members £2, Non Members £3
Overhall winner - Paul Holt (Wrexham RC)

Sorry but I dont think Ken (the organiser) had any money left in the kitty after paying the Timekeeper and for the prizes to help promote this great sport of Cycling.

Thanks Ken, Great Series - see you next season !
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legro
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on John you can do better than that. Back me up Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 25, 2002 7:38 pm    Post subject: Post Subject Reply with quote

well i rode 3 of the events myself and i thought that they were very good,they would be a good start to young time trailers who are hoping to become good at the sport.
AGE 13 Cool
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Des
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave, John

I have no problem with the aims of the TLI, although I would prefer to see more co-operation etc with BC. My problem is that with the TLI as a body, if they are proposing to be struck off the companies register and aren't providing accounts, what assurances do I have that my membership is vaild and that I am covered by insurance in TLI sanctioned events.

I was also worried by an earlier comment when someone mentioned that a race was merely organised under TLI rules. Does this mean that the event wasn't sactioned and thus not insured?

As we both race TLI events occasionaly Dave we should be kept informed as to the status of the main body, or else we could find ourselves with very large legal bills if we're involved in a incident with a 3rd party whilst racing.
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Gary K
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a question for both BC and TLI then -

Can you provide me, as General Secretary of a cycling body with over 250 members (The Army CU), with the details of the insurance cover we would be subscribing to should my members decide to join you?

I feel I would then be able to make a much more informed decision when riders ask me which body to join.

I look forward to either an e-mail telling me where I can get to the info, an e-mail containing the info, or the info through the post, my address being available by private messaging me. Mind you, BC will know it anyway and I believe John Williams of TLI has it too?
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Colin Fenwick
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2002 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Des' question seems reasonable insomuch as the insurance issue is a real one. I have no connection with the TLI organisation (although I am a member and did 3 TLI races this year) but do know some of the people who organise TLI races. I don't believe they'd put on a race if they thought for a second there was an issue around insurance. Be good to get an answer though.

On the general issue being discussed I'm with Legro on this one and stand by my (much) earlier post. The TLI do make it easier for novices and vets to race than BC do. I have to disagree with Brian Cookson in that if BC technical regulations do allow for this type of racing I've never come across a BC race like that and I must have done 40 BC races in the 2 years I've been racing.

In my club the TLI Tuesday evening series are a very good place to get people to dip their toes into the world of road racing - worked for me! There's no commitment, no pre-entry. You turn up, pay your tenner and race. Marshalling etc. is on a par with most BC races I do.

Compare that with trying out a BC race. You've probably had to confirm with the organiser that he can take your EOL (all right not really a big deal but for an inexperienced young lad it can be daunting). You'll pay a higher EOL fee plus the day license which'll be far more than £10 in total. It'll probably be a 3/4 and if it's at all hilly you stand a fair chance of going off the back on the first lap. As a novice what would you do?

They can guarantee an EOL as there are 3 age related groups on the road at once separated by 3-4 min. Why can't BC races be like this? An E.1 group off first followed by a 2.3 and finally the 4's. Solves the problem of not enough E.1 races and not enough 4 only races.

I'm a relatively recent convert to road cycling so know nothing of the history but the animosity that exists between these 2 organisations never ceases to amaze me.
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Brian Cookson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 27, 2002 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary - Details of British Cycling insurance coverage can be found on our website, or by e-mailing membership@britishcycling.org.uk or by simply asking for a copy of the leaflet on the subject.

Colin - I repeat that there is absolutely no reason why events that TLI runs, as you describe them, could not be run under British Cycling rules. If its a question of the standard of the competitors, then an organiser could accept the worst 60 entries, 4th cats with no points, novices only, or whatever. If it's a question of cost, well I've said here many times before that the bulk of British Cycling costs go to ensure that we have the best possible insurance for everyone involved, riders and officials. As we all know from our household and car insurance, etc., with insurance you get what you pay for!

The remainder of the costs goes towards administering the sport and towards trying to build it into a sport that we can all be proud of, performing at world level at the top end, and at the bottom end developing programmes to introduce tens of thousands of youngsters into our great sport every year. Yes, this costs money. We get much of this from the National Lottery, but we have to put something in ourselves as a sport.

This is the part of the equation that TLI does not contribute to and this is why I try to keep explaining on here and elsewhere that running events under TLI rules is not really such a good idea for the long term future of our sport. TLI might save you a bit of cash, but it is essentially a cul-de-sac for our sport and in eroding our base it threatens the success of the whole sport.

As to why good people who love the sport do this, well Colin I see that you are from Macclesfield. There are a number of people in that area who, for whatever reason, have fallen out with other people over the years, or haven't liked some decision or other of the BCF locally or nationally, so they have decided to go their own way. Fine, like I said before, it's a free country. I hold no personal animosity towards them. But they are deluding themselves and you if they believe that what they are doing is helping take the sport forward. It isn't. It is fragmenting even more a sport that has been historically too fragmented.

Now, even worse, we are beginning to find from postings on here that things are not quite so straightforward with TLI as we are led to believe. It seems that TLI has been making "dormant company" returns to Companies House, whilst it clearly is trading. We hear stories of large cash surpluses being made on events, and no explanation of where the money goes to. Despite the fact that TLI officials do read and post on this website, they refuse to answer any questions on these matters.

Frankly if British Cycling carried on like this there would be a public outcry in the cycling world.

Sorry to go on a bit Colin, but there you have a summary of the issues. If you or anyone else could get your local TLI officials to explain why the TLI is so silent on these important matters, I'd love to hear it. So, I think, would the readers of veloriders message board and the bike riders of Great Britain!

Brian Cookson
President, British Cycling
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