Should we have a seperate area for EUG discussions?

[Hans Datdodishes]

[MadCow]

[martin smith]

[Plurien]

Point taken, Martin. Can I crave your interest to explain something;-

Hog Hill is not a 'replacement' it's a relocation.
After the Games the Legacy Olympic Park is only option with funding - because of a 'relocation and legacy strategy' won by EUG to look after riders' interests.

Hog Hill is a complete unknown after 2013 because it will be reliant on local authority funding. It could go at any time no matter how 'permanent' the relocation facilities are intended to be. (it's not easy to build for 7 or 8 years in a way that isn't 'permanent')

The only sure thing is that the money EUG forced out of the developer for a replacement is back at the Olympic Park.

The proposition when we left Eastway was a 34ha park with replacement of the road circuit, mountainbike and cycloX competition facilities, plus the velodrome and BMX; together with a relocation and suitable interim provision if that wasn't ready. Great, we're all agreed.

Hog Hill is not completed until the end of this year (though the ODA told London's elected assembly it would be Sept.. we were told it would be Feb 2007, then we implemented the clause to get The Royals for then - nothing)
We have evasion of the legacy provision by invoking the 'Hog Hill permanent facility' issue. The facility at Eastway was to be replaced in full. The ODA now wriggles by saying the conditions don't apply because it never started that plan, but it got the land, didn't it?

Those who have been at the table through the recent planning process have presided over the reduction of the legacy replacement to a strip of circuit wrapped around the A12 on a site which is under 7ha. The current idea of taking the road circuit meandering into the N of the site really doesn't go anywhere towards replacing Eastway's road circuit. The off-road competition facilities are non-existent, to the point that the ODA and BC agree a now neighbouring residential area park can be put up for 'occasional use'. - What?! You agree to lose that land, so we lose the MTB XC and any prospect of a decent road layout - Because each takes up space. - On land that is wanted for development
- Despite what the chief exec of the ODA told the London Assembly, parts of the 34ha do look like they're going to housing.

Users have been denied a place in the negotiations by reason of BC putting up a 'London Alliance' which it presented as capable of representing users. Users don't agree with that. BC is 'in' with the ODA as its cycle discipline partner, it's 'in' with the landowner and it wants to be 'in' as the representative of those who would use this facility. It has shown itself incapable of representing the needs of users adequately in amongst these other responsibilities.

Still in doubt? BC is on record as saying that the reduced plans 'will be a great benefit to British Cycling'. Well beg pardon, but that isn't acceptable to users and it isn't informed by any substantial understanding of the planning background, apart from a wish to 'negotiate' with the developer which cut the velopark back so drastically.
- Why would BC not oppose the application?
- When did BC know the plans had been cut back?

Users have repeatedly tried to work with BC, even in times when it was blatantly in opposition to their clearly-stated wishes. Each time there is a rapprochement and parties seek to work with each other. That was our understanding of what was going on since May 2006 when the relocation to Hog Hill was secured. Comes round to 15 Jan 2007 and suddenly we're presented with a cut legacy, a hint of Hog Hill and hey presto, BC is all fine and dandy because it got the London Alliance to say so for users.

This issue is now at a level above where it was before the 3rd May - the ODA meeting wasn't a 'consultation' and we didn't have 'input' into the plans in the way the ODA team promised its CEO and Lord Coe, as well as the London Assembly.

I hope that goes some way to explain. Fair enough if you feel you don't want to read any more, but can you accept there are people who will keep on going because they were put through hell to get a fair relocation and legacy after BC had been on the scene with its own agreement. Once Eastway has gone; the terms have too, but BC is saying it's pleased with the plans and its progress. - How would you feel about that?

If BC wants to help the developer in this, it won't come out of it well as far as the riders are concerned - and that's certainly the groundswell round 'ere.

[KJ]

As clear as the mud you continue to sling Plurien

[Plurien]

Given some of the background and some of the difficulties, what would you propose users should do, KJ?

[George Gilbert]

[Plurien]

The principle of legacy and replacement means giving a road circuit and mountainbike competition facilities - that's what we had on a 24ha site - plus the velodrome and BMX.
You just seem to be saying; 'We don't have these facilities, so why should you?'

[KJ]

There is a book called How to Win Friends and Influence People.

May I suggest you read it?

[George Gilbert]

[KJ]

Basically Plurien you are London's answer to Howard Peel who can only see one side of any question and once stuck in his little argumentative rut can't turn round.

[ajay]

Reading this I can't help but be reminded of a process that happened in the health service recently. Agenda of Change was a (partly) unneccessary, (overly) complicated and (very) stressfull process that we all went through.
Some people were left with less money, some with more, most with the same.
However the process stirred up a whole load of resentment. Within my service, there were two sides of it, that remind me of this. One worker (lets call him Lance, not his real name) went into the whole thing expecting the worse of "management", expecting to be "screwed" over and generally haranging everyone over their lack of concern and commitment.
My line manager (I'm "middle managemnt, e.g still hands-on, but in between senior managers and "staff" as it were) had a nightmare of a time from him, Lance constantly accused him of doing nothing, not supproting him and of not caring. Nothing this manager did was enough, he never went out about things in the way Lance wanted and Lance fully expected him to deliberately try to use the process to pay him less money. This was ignoring the fact, that the manager had no control over the banding process, made no decisions and, in fact was unable, in fact prevented, from directly influencing the process.
Lance went about things by "banging desks" getting people's backs up and generally causing (more then neccessary) worry and stress.
He looks back on it (now, after they got a banding 2 higher than they expected, and at least 1 higher than they should have, they naturally earn more) and thinks how he made everything happen, and without him they would have been so badly off.
However, being in the middle and seeing more of the bigger picture I know better. This manager he was so fond of belittling (at one point Lance clained the manager was shocking cos he took a week's annual leave) had quietly gone about his job, respecting everyone in the process, putting his weight without fuss behind what was right for all, not always giving peopel the answer they wanted - but always being honest and at the end of the day signing off on the new bandings.

Others have said this clearly already, but pressure groups can always go about their business in a way that Organisational Bodies and thier leaders cannot - gentle and subtle discussions and negotiations aren't always showey and visible, but they can be effective.

Without being psychic, I can't know if there is any chance of Eatsway being replaced "as is" as part of the new facilities, but I do believe that just because they're not acting as a pressure group wants them to, doesn't mean they're any less likely to get as much as is possible.
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[Plurien]

GG - Please can you point to where the mtb competition facility is?

This is the full extent of the plans as applied for. MTB XC courses are min 6km, which is what we had at Eastway.

In what way would the facility inspire people to ride road or TTs like the old Eastway did?

- This comes from the ODA tender documentation so it's their plan, their scaling. They kindly left Eastway's old circuit on there. It is what Chris Hoy will be judging, this is what the architects and contractors are applying to build.

[Mr Switcher]

[Brian Cookson]

There you go again Michael, conveneniently only presenting partial information and ignoring things which don't fit your view. Why don't you tell people what was actually said about this issue at the meeting? As a reminder here's a clip from the BC website;

However it was made clear that this did not restrict the road circuit to the layout shown on the outline proposals, nor did it preclude land outside the immediate Velo Park being made available for competition off-road use at selected times. In fact some further appraisals had been undertaken of these issues, including the possibility of using more land to create a longer (2kms or more) road circuit, and it was also clear that an off road circuit of some 5 kms in length could be incorporated within the Olympic Park open areas adjacent to the Velo Park to host competition events at selected times of the year. Feasibility work also continues to increase BMX provision and to introduce Cycle Speedway facilities in the final Velo Park. All these matters would be taken forward as part of the next stage in the process.

Oh and read ajay and other posts above, for a view of how many independent-minded people see your tactics. Have you noticed how those kind of comments are increasing? Will you learn from them? Somehow I doubt it.

Brian.

[Des]

Any idea when those "selected times" will be yet Brian?
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www.kentonrc.co.uk

[George Gilbert]

[Brian Cookson]

Des - it is clearly understood by ODA, LVRPA and others, that there were weekly MTB events during the summer at Eastway, plus other occasional use for cyclo-cross, etc. It is the objective of BC and the aspiration of the people who are likely to manage the park that this level of frequency will return. As none of the management arrangements have been finalised and won't be for some time, no-one can guarantee that at this stage.

Meanwhile, there will be competition standard MTB circuits on an attractive greenfield site at Hog Hill and likely further use of the Olympic MTB facility at Weald Country Park as well. So, all round a much better deal for mountain bikers, and road riders also get a new circuit at Hog Hill, plus the road circuit at the Olympic Park as well, now looking likely to be longer than the old Eastway, plus occasional use of an even longer road circuit using service roads, etc., plus all the other stuff that veloriders readers are sick of hearing about.

Brian.

[Des]

Thanks for the reply Brian. I really do hope that it will work out, but as the above bodies are the same ones that have already gone back on their words, I remain to be totally convinced.

My offer of a ride across London to Eastway and Hog Hill on the 6th July still stands so that people can see first hand why the legacy facilities are so important.
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www.kentonrc.co.uk

[Hans Datdodishes]

I'd half-wheel you
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World Masters Drive HillClimb For Taureans Category C Champion 2013.

I'm a qualified coach.