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Winter Series races
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Points for winter road racing?
1. Yes a good thing
50%
 50%  [ 29 ]
2. No, distorts rankings
49%
 49%  [ 28 ]
Total Votes : 57

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dockeca
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:59 pm    Post subject: Winter Series races Reply with quote

Just a thought, there are going to be at least two series in the London area, strting at the end of the "proper" road season. No doubt very useful for keeping fit through the winter, but should points be available? It may be possible for people to get enough pints to get into a category where either the racing is too difficult when the real season comes around, or even to get to a point where they are in a category where there are fewer races, and then start moaning about having to travel more!
Thoughts??
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Billy Boy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's easy to race and not get points, so where's the problem?
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Voodoo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Band 5 events are pretty low earners on the points.

Not sure I agree with the band 3 Nat B races throughout the winter though.

That is a bit silly i think.

A little too easy to get points if only 10 people turn up like in the Avonup series etc.. (I know a few weeks of that if you turned up you would get points)
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MrPumpy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Points or no points its still a great means of keeping fit. I dont want to ride cross so would just like to race once a month at least. If people moan about going up categories then they shouldnt bother racing - surely its about getting better and progressing (even if it means taking a kicking at the next level). I would have thought the majority of races would be run as a C+ or even C event so no or few points would be available. Just a bit gutted and surprised there are no winter series events in the NW as there are loads of races available during the main season.
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speedyg
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voodoo wrote:
the Band 5 events are pretty low earners on the points.

Not sure I agree with the band 3 Nat B races throughout the winter though.

That is a bit silly i think.

A little too easy to get points if only 10 people turn up like in the Avonup series etc.. (I know a few weeks of that if you turned up you would get points)


Agreed. nat B for any winter series is absurd. should be capped at Reg c+ (10 for a win etc) that way you wouldn't get JS etc nearly keeping their Elite 'circuit' licence before 95% of riders' seasons had started.
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speedyg
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

you need some points on offer though, or else many wouldn't even bother turning up for £20 win purse alone Confused
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Cryoplasm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Proper season Question

This season ends 31/12/08

New season begins 1/1/09



Those last few numbers look scary.
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qcscmh
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its good for riders if they want to race.

There will always be riders who ride more races than others, whether its in the winter or loads of evening crits or track even.
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Magic Rabbit
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riding more races means you're likely to get more points; this doesn't make you a better rider than someone who has ridden 5 races and won them all.

The French have a good system based on your best 15 results during the season, which would probably give you a better idea of how good you are.

So do what you like with the points in a winter season, cos the system is nonsense Wink
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Steve D-T
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A race is a race and a win is a win whatever time of year its ridden.
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dockeca
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it could be achieved (and why not with use of technology?) then Magic's idea as per the French system has a lot of merit. Maybe it could be the best 10 results, to make it even more cirrent. Personally I'm not sure that any result between 30 November and 1 February should be counted. To say that if there are no points no-one would ride is not valid, I think that the people who want to use winter circuit racing just for fitness will still turn up. The comment about prize money is spurious. As so many never win anything (or indeed get points), then how can you account for them still riding?
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racyrich2
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dockeca wrote:
If it could be achieved (and why not with use of technology?) then Magic's idea as per the French system has a lot of merit. Maybe it could be the best 10 results, to make it even more cirrent. Personally I'm not sure that any result between 30 November and 1 February should be counted. To say that if there are no points no-one would ride is not valid, I think that the people who want to use winter circuit racing just for fitness will still turn up. The comment about prize money is spurious. As so many never win anything (or indeed get points), then how can you account for them still riding?


Indeed. So why make it a race at all? Trevor's 'races' are not sanctioned races, he just hires the circuits and sets off the riders. Saves lots of money in permits and levies.
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Canonised
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't bother travelling to do a training ride. Who would? Equally, having 3 winter series in the SE competing for a limited pool of riders, so having to outdo each other with more and more points to get people to show up does seem a bit daft.

RE points for top 10 results from the year. How do you go up a category mid season? Just wondering. Surely it means that if you start the year as a 4th cat, you end it as a 4th cat, and it's not until the federation look at your year's results that you get moved up?
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Magic Rabbit
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canonised wrote:
I wouldn't bother travelling to do a training ride. Who would? Equally, having 3 winter series in the SE competing for a limited pool of riders, so having to outdo each other with more and more points to get people to show up does seem a bit daft.

RE points for top 10 results from the year. How do you go up a category mid season? Just wondering. Surely it means that if you start the year as a 4th cat, you end it as a 4th cat, and it's not until the federation look at your year's results that you get moved up?


Good question! With the French system, you can still move up mid-season based on a separate points system. Simply put, if you're a 3rd cat and get 3 wins during the season then you get your 2nd cat. To go from 2nd to 1st cat I think it's 4 wins...

It doesn't have to be wins, but your points for mid-season upgrading only come from Top 6 placings, e.g. 2 wins, 3 seconds and 5 fourths (just an example). Primes also count towards points for mid-season upgrading... but this probably isn't something we need to worry about in the UK!

Don't confuse that with your end of year ranking based on your best 15 results which is a completely different points system!

For the end of year rankings (as per English system), higher category races carry higher points. But there is also a coefficient for the number of riders in the race... i.e. 100 riders means a coefficient of 1, 90 riders would mean a co-eff of 0.9, 80 riders a co-eff of 0.8 and so on. The same goes for more riders, i.e. 110 riders means a co-eff of 1.1, 120 riders a co-eff of 1.2.

Okay, it looks like a well complicated system... but the French seem to manage it and it probably gives a more accurate reflection of your 'true' ranking.

Did I bore the socks off you?
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Starley
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canonised wrote:
I wouldn't bother travelling to do a training ride. Who would? Equally, having 3 winter series in the SE competing for a limited pool of riders, so having to outdo each other with more and more points to get people to show up does seem a bit daft.


That's a good point, it'll be interesting to see whether the national B races at RCC attract a field which merits the 30 points for a win on offer and whether Hillingdon either get far fewer riders as a result or upgrade their races to compete. You could of course simply introduce a rule requiring all winter series races to be run as Cs.
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dockeca
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good idea Starley. New Regulation.
"Any road race run between 30 November and 1 February shall automaticcly be classified at the lowest points band available, regardless of distance".
Or better still
"Ranking points shall not be awarded for any road race run between 30 November and 1 February."

The situation in SE looks odd, it remains to be seen whether the total of riders increases, or competition simply reduces fields. If anyone proposes to award national B points, you have to question their motives.
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Des
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dockeca wrote:
Good idea Starley. New Regulation.
"Any road race run between 30 November and 1 February shall automaticcly be classified at the lowest points band available, regardless of distance".
Or better still
"Ranking points shall not be awarded for any road race run between 30 November and 1 February."

The situation in SE looks odd, it remains to be seen whether the total of riders increases, or competition simply reduces fields. If anyone proposes to award national B points, you have to question their motives.


I'd extend it until the Easter weekend Idea Laughing
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John McC
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better still "No racing shall take place between November and February as it is verging on luncay".
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Davey C
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who want to race are ususally happy of the points, and should man up and take them if are good enough. We have the opposite problem down here, too many '1st cats' staying 2nd cats.
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Canonised
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John McC wrote:
Better still "No racing shall take place between November and February as it is verging on luncay".


Lunacy? Did you see the weather this summer? I raced cross last December and January and didn't get wet once. Give me winter any day.
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