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Cary de Weigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:41 pm    Post subject: Red Lights Reply with quote

Sorry to raise this again, but I just started working two days a week in London and I'm shocked by the number of London cyclists who ride through red lights on pedestrian crossings. One nearly got me crossing Marylebone Road yesterday.

What is it with these guys?! We're never going to get the non-cycling public on our side while this carries on. They need a smack round the head in my view. Mad Wink
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Roy Gardiner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:
Sorry to raise this again, but I just started working two days a week in London and I'm shocked by the number of London cyclists who ride through red lights on pedestrian crossings. One nearly got me crossing Marylebone Road yesterday.

What is it with these guys?! We're never going to get the non-cycling public on our side while this carries on. They need a smack round the head in my view. Mad Wink
It is unacceptable to inconvenience a pedestrian in that way, for the PR reasons you cite.

But it is often safer, sometimes much safer, to break red lights at crossroads where all traffic lanes are stopped for walkers to cross.
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Cary de Weigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Roy Gardiner wrote:
But it is often safer, sometimes much safer, to break red lights at crossroads where all traffic lanes are stopped for walkers to cross.


I don't disagree, but the many instances I've seen have never been in those circumstances.

Yesterday, all three lanes of traffic had stopped; me and about a dozen other people had started to cross, and this bloke cycled straight through without even a sideways glance. It must have looked really bad to all the motorists and pedestrians.

Now, he was just some young bloke on a bike - not a 'proper' cyclist - but he must have got the idea from observing general behaviour that this was acceptable. So, my question to all Veloriders in London is: do you set a good example in this respect?
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Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Roy Gardiner wrote:

But it is often safer, sometimes much safer, to break red lights at crossroads where all traffic lanes are stopped for walkers to cross.


I agree totally Roy. My priorities are to get to work alive and uninjured, and I will ignore Red lights if I think it is safer to do so. And in the scenario you describe it can be safer.

On a slight tangent, in Camden last week the pedestrians were as ever crossing one of the crossings on red and I gave a warning shout (a polite "Coming through" no swearing and to make sure I've been seen rather than aggressive). A few minutes later locking up my bike outside sainsburys I got collared by to special cuntstables who told me I shouldn't have done that and should have given way, I pointted out that I had the right of way and maybe they should have been speaking to the pedestrians that were in the wrong. They still maintained I should have, so I asked if they were really suggestting I stop in the road so a car or bus can run over me as they wouldnt be expecting a statinary cyclist and they then conceded I might have a point. But as I walked into the shop they told me to "think on for the future" - idiots.
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Big-C
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:
Roy Gardiner wrote:
But it is often safer, sometimes much safer, to break red lights at crossroads where all traffic lanes are stopped for walkers to cross.


I don't disagree, but the many instances I've seen have never been in those circumstances.

Yesterday, all three lanes of traffic had stopped; me and about a dozen other people had started to cross, and this bloke cycled straight through without even a sideways glance.

Now, he was just some young bloke on a bike - not a 'proper' cyclist - but he must have got the idea from observing general behaviour that this was acceptable. So, my question to all Veloriders in London is: do you set a good example in this respect?


thread aside. I hate this term 'proper' cyclist. if you ride a bike you are a cyclist. Just because we wear lycra nd pi$$ money away on more expensice bikes doesn't make us better than the bloke on £20 bike in jeans.

stop being so elitist
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Cary de Weigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Big-C wrote:
thread aside. I hate this term 'proper' cyclist. if you ride a bike you are a cyclist. Just because we wear lycra nd pi$$ money away on more expensice bikes doesn't make us better than the bloke on £20 bike in jeans.

stop being so elitist


I knew someone would say that! That's why I put the term in inverted commas. How else do I distinguish quickly between someone riding a badly-adjusted bike in unsuitable clothing for utility purposes and someone who rides regularly? I wasn't talking about people on expensive bikes.
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Big-C
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:
Big-C wrote:
thread aside. I hate this term 'proper' cyclist. if you ride a bike you are a cyclist. Just because we wear lycra nd pi$$ money away on more expensice bikes doesn't make us better than the bloke on £20 bike in jeans.

stop being so elitist


I knew someone would say that! That's why I put the term in inverted commas. How else do I distinguish quickly between someone riding a badly-adjusted bike in unsuitable clothing for utility purposes and someone who rides regularly? I wasn't talking about people on expensive bikes.


why should you distinguish ?

the facts were a cyclist rode thru a red light, period.

just as you would say a motorist was speeding or drove thru a red light.


Or, would you say a proper motorist because he drives a Aston Martin, for example ?


the guy next door to me rides 5 miles to work and back on a mountain bike, in jeans and has done so everyday (as far as I can tell) for the 10 years I have lived in this house. MAkes him, in my book, more of a proper cyclist than me, mincing about occassionally
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JONNO
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Big-C wrote:
Cary de Weigh wrote:
Roy Gardiner wrote:
But it is often safer, sometimes much safer, to break red lights at crossroads where all traffic lanes are stopped for walkers to cross.


I don't disagree, but the many instances I've seen have never been in those circumstances.

Yesterday, all three lanes of traffic had stopped; me and about a dozen other people had started to cross, and this bloke cycled straight through without even a sideways glance.

Now, he was just some young bloke on a bike - not a 'proper' cyclist - but he must have got the idea from observing general behaviour that this was acceptable. So, my question to all Veloriders in London is: do you set a good example in this respect?


thread aside. I hate this term 'proper' cyclist. if you ride a bike you are a cyclist. Just because we wear lycra nd pi$$ money away on more expensice bikes doesn't make us better than the bloke on £20 bike in jeans.

stop being so elitist


I nearly got flattened by a runner the other day, he must have been a runner because that is what he was doing but he weighed about 20 stones and was wearing jeans and a hoody.
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Cary de Weigh
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is getting silly!

I guess what I am saying is that people who love cycling enough to be members of this forum should, in my opinion, set an example by not riding through red lights when people are crossing.

You cannot pick and choose which rules of the road you obey. If we don't obey the rules then we can't complain when other road users don't.

If any of you routinely ride through red lights then you are letting the rest of us down in my view.
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Rich Hill
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see where BigC is coming from but I also understand Cary's point. I've ridden enough in the smoke to know that this is a REAL problem.

The majority of riding I do is up from Leicester Sq to Euston on the Charing Cross Road and there are STACKS traffic lights. I don't mind having to stop as I try and see if I can out sprint the learner mopeds and then when they get up to speed I sit behind them and let them take me as fast as they can go.. Legro would be proud.

I really don't see the need to jump red lights and would certainly be in favour of bringing in more fines and legislation against it.

The ONLY thing I will concede is that a cyclist CAN maneovere to another position on the road behind the red light so as to be in a safe position when the lights turn green.
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Roy Gardiner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cary and Rich, I disagree.

It is often safer to jump reds, specifically as I've said at a crossroads where all cars are halted.

I've been riding for a while; anything, however slight, that improves my safety I'm going to take it -- as long of course as it does not compromise anyone else's, which I make sure it does not.

As to the PR, it's a fair point. But, once again, I'm not going to compromise my safety for an abstract principle.
Rich Hill wrote:
I really don't see the need to jump red lights and would certainly be in favour of bringing in more fines and legislation against it.
I would be in favour of legislation to allow cyclists to go at lights when pedestrians can- max speed 6mph.
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Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:

If any of you routinely ride through red lights then you are letting the rest of us down in my view.


Oh well. I'd rather let you all down than do something that puts me in danger. Confused Confused Confused

I cross Swiss Cottage daily, coming from Adelaide road. I need to be on the outside lane approaching the lights, once the lights have changed I'm in the middle lane of 5. I go the minute the lights are on amber for the oppsitte direction, way before mine are on green, mainly because I feel its safer because I can reach the other side without dodging cars.

Oh and I sometimes ride about 100 metres the wrong way down a one way street if its clear because it is safer than the 3 right hand turns that is the legal option. Which I guess makes me the devil incarnate?

Your piunt about riding through a pedestrian crossing on red is valid, bt other than that, the roads aren't designed for cyclists and as I said before I do what I feel is safer for me first and foremost. Not waht is legal. The other side of it is I will sit in stationary traffic if I feel that that is safer.
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Roy Gardiner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lee wrote:
I cross Swiss Cottage daily, coming from Adelaide road. I need to be on the outside lane approaching the lights, once the lights have changed I'm in the middle lane of 5. I go the minute the lights are on amber for the oppsitte direction, way before mine are on green, mainly because I feel its safer because I can reach the other side without dodging cars.
May I make a suggestion?

There looks to me to be a gazillion side roads around there; I find it really pays to look hard for alternative routes that avoid busy junctions. You've only got to get that amber light business wrong once with traffic involved.
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John McC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy, what are you going to be like when you are old?

I cannot believe there is much of a safety issue to pass a green signal and turn left or right - I do this every day on my commute without real incident, ever. Are you saying you wait when it is green, until it goes red, and then p!ss off pedestrians and any motorists watching Confused The mind boggles.
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Roy Gardiner
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

John McC wrote:
Roy, what are you going to be like when you are old?

I cannot believe there is much of a safety issue to pass a green signal and turn left or right - I do this every day on my commute without real incident, ever. Are you saying you wait when it is green, until it goes red, and then p!ss off pedestrians and any motorists watching Confused The mind boggles.
It would if I did what you say.

At a crossroads if there's a 4-way stop, I go. I don't impede pedestrians.

When green, I carry on as normal. What's the problem?

But I do work hard at finding routes without these issues, off main roads. I am already 20 years older'n you and a pretty poor bike handler - all my home to work tumbles have been my own fault. But, touch wood, I've never had an incident involving a vehicle.
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Wheezer!
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:
.

If any of you routinely ride through red lights then you are letting the rest of us down in my view.


Sorry but I let you all down then. I do it and I admit it. When I do it's 'cos it's safe (to me and others) to do so. If it isn't I don't.
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John McC
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy Gardiner wrote:
At a crossroads if there's a 4-way stop, I go. I don't impede pedestrians.

When green, I carry on as normal. What's the problem?

So when on green you carry on, and also go through when on "4 station stop" red. Sounds to me like having your cake and eating it.

Of course it would be safer to use the roads if there was no motor traffic, but there is, and plenty of it. Consequently we need to fit in with vehicles, and pedestrians by following the highway code as much as possible, and not behaving in a way which brings us as a group into disrepute.
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Lee
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roy Gardiner wrote:
Lee wrote:
I cross Swiss Cottage daily, coming from Adelaide road. I need to be on the outside lane approaching the lights, once the lights have changed I'm in the middle lane of 5. I go the minute the lights are on amber for the oppsitte direction, way before mine are on green, mainly because I feel its safer because I can reach the other side without dodging cars.
May I make a suggestion?

There looks to me to be a gazillion side roads around there; I find it really pays to look hard for alternative routes that avoid busy junctions. You've only got to get that amber light business wrong once with traffic involved.


Coming home I do take a route that circum-navigates it. But on the way in I chose the shortest route, that the only dodgy bit on it, but as I start at 8 I'm not adding a mile or so on when it would include an almost as dodgt junction on the edge of Camden/Regents park and a couple more right hand turns. To me it's the safest it with one dodgy bit.
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alexc
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Red Lights Reply with quote

Cary de Weigh wrote:
Sorry to raise this again, but I just started working two days a week in London and I'm shocked by the number of London cyclists who ride through red lights on pedestrian crossings. One nearly got me crossing Marylebone Road yesterday.

What is it with these guys?! We're never going to get the non-cycling public on our side while this carries on. They need a smack round the head in my view. Mad Wink

I commute 16 miles eachway every day and I ALWAYS roll through red lights when safe to do so, I have 25 sets each way and have NEVER been close to being hit, I usually go when the pedestrian rossing lihts are on, adn I have never had any trouble from motorists or pedestrians, Its so much safer than wobbling off in front of a car/truck trying to get your feet clipped in.
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Last edited by alexc on Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:29 am; edited 1 time in total
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Hans Datdodishes
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No excuses and no exceptions, any cyclist who runs a red light gives everyone else on a bike a bad name through their moronic actions
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