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KJ T de F Winner
Joined: 18 May 2005 Posts: 26400
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:14 am Post subject: |
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DenHaag wrote: |
KJ wrote: |
I struggle with this race of truth concept. |
honestly? |
Yes.
If it's so truthful, only man and machine, what relevance does the course have? Especially as Rule 1 is no drafting. What effect does traffic have and if it's not relevant why use busy roads?
Everytime I read about another death or accident, it saddens me, but makes me angry too. _________________ 'You are a free woman. You will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed (that you should be so lucky ) or numbered. Your life is your own.' |
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Tom Butcher E, Silver
Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 1575 Location: Derby
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:49 am Post subject: |
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Perhaps it's time to give time trialling a category system. I know it's often criticised for road racing but it gives people who aren't in the hunt to win events something to aim for - and there's no doubt people do chase points.
If you had some kind of system whereby you could be a first cat tester, second cat etc you could reward rides on sporting courses and pb chasing might become points chasing. It's the pb chasing that is the problem after all - taking cycling even semi seriously is a big commitment and if you aren't up there in the top places you are going to need something to aim at - otherwise where is your motivation ?
I don't like the idea of an outright ban on dual carriageways - but at the same time I don't like the idea of riding on the A1 again either.
Having said all that I can't see things changing voluntarily. At our club AGM in 2011 I proposed we scrap the club BAR based on average speed and keep the one based on % of winners time because we didn't need two competitions and it was wrong to incentivise riding dual carriageways. After a rather spicy discussion I think the vote was me against everybody else - though someone did come up to me afterwards and say they had agreed with what I said! |
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Megman Div 2 Pro
Joined: 11 Jul 2003 Posts: 5786 Location: Not in Lich any more
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Tom Butcher wrote: |
Perhaps it's time to give time trialling a category system. I know it's often criticised for road racing but it gives people who aren't in the hunt to win events something to aim for - and there's no doubt people do chase points.
If you had some kind of system whereby you could be a first cat tester, second cat etc you could reward rides on sporting courses and pb chasing might become points chasing. It's the pb chasing that is the problem after all - taking cycling even semi seriously is a big commitment and if you aren't up there in the top places you are going to need something to aim at - otherwise where is your motivation?... |
You mean like these http://rankings.midlanddc.org.uk/ |
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gazrichards E, Bronze
Joined: 22 Feb 2006 Posts: 349 Location: bedfordshire
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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Tom Butcher wrote: |
Perhaps it's time to give time trialling a category system. I know it's often criticised for road racing but it gives people who aren't in the hunt to win events something to aim for - and there's no doubt people do chase points.
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Ive commented on this subject on the TT forum a few times and the PB chasers just seem to have a ridiculous and rather militant attitude towards it. I think the general gist of their argument is that a 19 minute 10 mile means more than 120 points for a win ever could. I personally dont understand that logic and agree with the comments re. the "race of truth". there is nothing very truthful about drafting lorries and downhill/tailwind courses creating superfast times.
Ive not done many open TTs but Im relatively proud of the handful of top 10s I have had in large fields. I couldnt tell you my times for those races. I dont know my 10 mile PB but I do know it was on the A1 (F1 version) and I wasnt very high in the standings so forget my final position.
surely its better to win with a 22.15 or whatever than come 80th with a 19.54? |
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Zarate E, Silver
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1925 Location: Your guess is as good as mine, I dunno.
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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Exactly. From the few TTs I rode, I was generally top 20/30, and several times top 10. Yet all anyone wanted to ask was the time! Better to be 10th a minute behind a winner than 90th 5 minutes behind but with a "PB" because of fluke conditions and dodgy lorry assistance. Or am I wrong?
Because CTT and Cycling Weekly, who faithfully talk BBAR and "fast" times, seem to think I am, surely. _________________ Mexican underwater chili eating champion 1957
Now much nearer to Mexico than the old country. |
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AlbertHerring E, Silver
Joined: 02 Apr 2008 Posts: 1342 Location: Cistridentine Nottingham
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Posted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:21 pm Post subject: |
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All the proposed solutions seem to fail to address the strengths of the RTTC model which are why it has persisted this far despite how dull testing is - you need to come up with some way of replicating them in any alternative system. And by that I mean in particular the comparability (however flaky) of performances in different events which the standard distance, personal-best-oriented setup provides. It gives every rider, most of whom will be perfectly aware that they aren't going to be anywhere near the prize lists, something plausible to aim for. Nobody gives a damn about placings outside the top ten in anything - nobody's going to feel anything special about coming 82nd instead of 96th like last week regardless of whether they're riding a 25 or a road race. You want to know that (a) you went better than last Thursday and (b) you did a better ride than your mate in another similar event.
So, my suggestion would be to take the vast amount of recorded data on individual performances that we already have, along with the ready availability of computers and no great shortage of mathmos just waiting for the challenge, to work on some method for "handicapping" courses to make fair comparisons possible by adjusting times by some standard factor or formula. That would not only mean you could move from the A1 to the back lanes without disadvantaging riders, but also that you could remove the need for precise distance matching allowing courses and start and finish locations to be chosen on practical grounds - you could rule that a notional "10" time could be standardised from anything between, say, 8 and 12 miles. You could maybe express the outcome in points (as in the heptathlon/decathlon) rather than an adjusted time, which would simplify leagues and BARs and stuff like that. Would take a year or two to bring in and fine tune, obviously, but shouldn't be impossible or vastly expensive or require much more computing power than most of the riders will have on their phones anyway. |
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Zarate E, Silver
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1925 Location: Your guess is as good as mine, I dunno.
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Posted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:50 am Post subject: |
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Interesting, isn't it, that everyone more or less agrees on one thing - a change is needed.
Is it true that BC and the govt are working on a revised version of the regulations for racing on the road? In which case I wonder if the amount of KSI in time trials will prompt a change from "notification" to "permit". Try persuading your local police/safety group/highways dept that "racing" unprotected along a virtual motorway is in any way safe in modern conditions. You wouldn't run a road race along a major DC (example, A1), with all the protection and vehicles, so how is it safe to let anyone from 12 upwards alone and visible by use of a flourescent number and a few signs? Can't quite work that out.
Getting the message, CTT? YOU need to change things before much worse changes are FORCED on you. _________________ Mexican underwater chili eating champion 1957
Now much nearer to Mexico than the old country. |
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TBK Div 3 Pro
Joined: 28 Oct 2003 Posts: 3984 Location: fighting the demons in my head........
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:12 am Post subject: |
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And another suspended sentence for as the Judge told Mr Bray he had been guilty of "an appalling loss of concentration" and had made "an appalling error".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17695954 _________________ A positive mental attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. |
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mig E, Silver
Joined: 04 Jan 2006 Posts: 668 Location: manchester
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:52 am Post subject: |
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would these riders use the A1 for commuting, training, enjoying going out for a ride etc? or avoid as it's too busy a route? _________________ tamp 'em up solid |
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Scruffy Dog Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 30 Dec 2010 Posts: 91
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Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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The clubs / organisers could take this into their own hands - just NOT 'book' these courses with their DCs. I would be frightened off promoting a time trial on any course like that.
I haven't promoted for years but co-ran a ten year series on Oulton Park instead of open road, road races. It was costly, but much safer and the only scare was running over a rabbit - and I don't think that ever happened. |
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Zarate E, Silver
Joined: 27 Sep 2005 Posts: 1925 Location: Your guess is as good as mine, I dunno.
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Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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Meanwhile a lady lies in hospital with very serious injuries related to the natioanl 25, which even some top end testers are saying is dangerous. The responsibility has to lay with the administrators, and silly riders who believe time is everything, and not winning, placing high (or better than last time). CTT nationally could stop the poblems if they wanted, by simply refusing to insure events on courses they KNOW have accident rates which are more than average.
I know the A19 road and it's practically, as with many major roads, a motorway. Not a place for a bike race, you simply have to ask would you go there for any other reason, and if the answer is no for your own safety reasons, why race on it? _________________ Mexican underwater chili eating champion 1957
Now much nearer to Mexico than the old country. |
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Svetty E, Bronze
Joined: 17 Jul 2007 Posts: 477
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Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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Someone from our club decided to pull out of the lady's 25 having recce'd the course and decided it was too risky. Prescient as it turned out. Get well soon Jane. _________________ Svetty
The Devil's Advocate |
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tipper Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 30 Jul 2010 Posts: 36 Location: Black Country
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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I can't believe some of the testers still don't wear proper helmets, even on all these dangerous courses! |
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DenHaag E, Gold
Joined: 24 Aug 2008 Posts: 3078 Location: Northumberland
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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tipper wrote: |
I can't believe some of the testers still don't wear proper helmets, even on all these dangerous courses! |
Do you really think it's going to make much difference? |
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Chrissylaa E, Gold
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Posts: 3382 Location: On a hillside desolate.
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Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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DenHaag wrote: |
tipper wrote: |
I can't believe some of the testers still don't wear proper helmets, even on all these dangerous courses! |
Do you really think it's going to make much difference? |
+1
I was thinking full titanium and kevlar suits.
Back in the day the dual carriageways weren't too bad but nowadays they are simply motorways in some cases. _________________ And the senses being dulled are mine. |
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Dobby Cat 4 Groupie
Joined: 20 Nov 2007 Posts: 9 Location: Etwall, Derby
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 7:17 am Post subject: |
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can we all stop having a go at others sports, i belive it is a free choice as to what you ride RR ,TT ,CX ,MTB and track all have risks so if you decide not to do one as you think its to dangerous dont have a go at those that do,
all you will do is drive a bigger wedge between the sport and we will all lose to the motorists and be off the roads. |
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Des Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002 Posts: 16900 Location: Harrow
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:48 am Post subject: |
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Dobby wrote: |
can we all stop having a go at others sports, i belive it is a free choice as to what you ride RR ,TT ,CX ,MTB and track all have risks so if you decide not to do one as you think its to dangerous dont have a go at those that do,
all you will do is drive a bigger wedge between the sport and we will all lose to the motorists and be off the roads. |
I always viewed it as the same sport, certainly it is in the eyes of Joe Public, which is why events like last weekend are so damaging for the sport and past time in general. _________________ www.kentonrc.co.uk |
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Chrissylaa E, Gold
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Posts: 3382 Location: On a hillside desolate.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Dobby wrote: |
can we all stop having a go at others sports, i belive it is a free choice as to what you ride RR ,TT ,CX ,MTB and track all have risks so if you decide not to do one as you think its to dangerous dont have a go at those that do,
all you will do is drive a bigger wedge between the sport and we will all lose to the motorists and be off the roads. |
I think most on here are commenting on the organisational side/safety of riders. _________________ And the senses being dulled are mine. |
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Hans Datdodishes T de F Winner
Joined: 28 Feb 2002 Posts: 28370 Location: On the Superior Forum with the cool kids
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:02 pm Post subject: |
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Dobby wrote: |
can we all stop having a go at others sports, i belive it is a free choice as to what you ride RR ,TT ,CX ,MTB and track all have risks so if you decide not to do one as you think its to dangerous dont have a go at those that do,
all you will do is drive a bigger wedge between the sport and we will all lose to the motorists and be off the roads. |
Stop talking shit. The sooner time trials on dual carriageways are outlawed and the stupid standard distances are dropped the better.
"All have risks"? - you'd better look at how many riders have died per year over the last 10 years in each branch of the sport. Head in the sand cretins chasing artificial times by being sucked along by close passing traffic. Idiots. _________________ World Masters Drive HillClimb For Taureans Category C Champion 2013.
I'm a qualified coach. |
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Chrissylaa E, Gold
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 Posts: 3382 Location: On a hillside desolate.
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Posted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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Hans Datdodishes wrote: |
Dobby wrote: |
can we all stop having a go at others sports, i belive it is a free choice as to what you ride RR ,TT ,CX ,MTB and track all have risks so if you decide not to do one as you think its to dangerous dont have a go at those that do,
all you will do is drive a bigger wedge between the sport and we will all lose to the motorists and be off the roads. |
Stop talking shit. The sooner time trials on dual carriageways are outlawed and the stupid standard distances are dropped the better.
"All have risks"? - you'd better look at how many riders have died per year over the last 10 years in each branch of the sport. Head in the sand cretins chasing artificial times by being sucked along by close passing traffic. Idiots. |
I don't get your point. _________________ And the senses being dulled are mine. |
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