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| Will David Millar ride for a Protour Team in 2006? |
| Yes |
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66% |
[ 35 ] |
| No |
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33% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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Message |
Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| bonger wrote: |
I don't have a wife or a family, i can't afford a car and i still live at home ALL because i love cycling and racing bikes.
Thank god i love the sport and what the sport is about as if i got on the HGH and EPO i would be at about at the level where i could fraud money from the industry and earn an ok living from racing bikes and therefore become part of why cycling as as popular as it could be. I am glad not everyone thinks like you. |
Sorry Bonger,
As I was nowhere near as good as David Millar (like everyone else on VR)..I don't judge him harshly. Cause you base your views on the idea that he cheated and you have no evidence he cheated because of 1 important fact ... nobody got tested, effectively tested, for EPO, so I have science to back that up...you go by rule books...I choose science and reality |
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De Rosa
World Champ
Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 10485
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucho wrote: |
| bonger wrote: |
I don't have a wife or a family, i can't afford a car and i still live at home ALL because i love cycling and racing bikes.
Thank god i love the sport and what the sport is about as if i got on the HGH and EPO i would be at about at the level where i could fraud money from the industry and earn an ok living from racing bikes and therefore become part of why cycling as as popular as it could be. I am glad not everyone thinks like you. |
Sorry Bonger,
As I was nowhere near as good as David Millar (like everyone else on VR)..I don't judge him harshly. Cause you base your views on the idea that he cheated and you have no evidence he cheated because of 1 important fact ... nobody got tested, effectively tested, for EPO, so I have science to back that up...you go by rule books...I choose science and reality |
Lucho I don't want to get involved in your argument with Bonger but surely David Millar held his hand up and admitted he had cheated? It is one of the things that was taken into account by the board that decided his ban/penalty? |
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Adam
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 7258
Location: London
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:01 pm Post subject: |
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The difference is he didn't have the mental strength to handle cheating even though he never produced a negative test, he has made alot more money from the sport than someone like me but when it comes to the amount of spritual enjoyment and mental happyness that can be gained from the sport he's more of a loser than me and riders like me can possibly ever be.
Actually good luck to him on his comeback, i think he has had more of a hard time than alot of the riders that fail a test.
Last edited by bonger on Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
I guess you never lied before..never done anything you're ashamed of? I think DM has been forced out of any role in cycling. I'm glad he's been banned for 2 years..he deserves it...but you guys deserve a ban for being so harsh when you don't know much of DMs job... |
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Matteo
E, Gold
Joined: 23 May 2003
Posts: 2640
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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| bonger wrote: |
| Emyr42 wrote: |
| maybe the manufacturers should be forced to create a test before the product is allowed to be sold... I'm sure the W.H.O. can do something about it. |
That would be a harsh delay for people that need the medication for geunine reasons. |
I remember reading an interview with an ex-pro (can't remember who) and he said that the manufacturers could easily put a marker in the *CENSORED* so that it would show up easier in dope tests. But they won't do it, presumably because it would result in lost sales.
_________________
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Matteomjb |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucho wrote: |
| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
I guess you never lied before..never done anything you're ashamed of? I think DM has been forced out of any role in cycling. I'm glad he's been banned for 2 years..he deserves it...but you guys deserve a ban for being so harsh when you don't know much of DMs job... |
I was taking you seriously until i read this bit, goodnight. |
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Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:09 pm Post subject: |
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| bonger wrote: |
The difference is he didn't have the mental strength to handle cheating even though he never produced a negative test, he has made alot more money from the sport than someone like me but when it comes to the amount of spritual enjoyment and mental happyness that can be gained from the sport he's more of a loser than me and riders like me can possibly ever be.
Actually good luck to him on his comeback, i think he has had more of a hard time than alot of the riders that fail a test. |
Bonger
I think the 2 year ban will have given him some serious pause for thought about the sport. It is a shame most pros hate cycling cause they have to do much more than they ever wanted to, and they totally forget that this is about good health and not all about winning. I see old blokes of late 50s still doing sub hr 25 TTs and I see fat mid 40s potential heart attack ex pros who won TDF and I think the old bloke of late 50s is far more sucessful on a bike and is a much better role model than high cholestrol ex TDF winners..health first...beating people a distant 2nd |
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Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| bonger wrote: |
| Lucho wrote: |
| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
I guess you never lied before..never done anything you're ashamed of? I think DM has been forced out of any role in cycling. I'm glad he's been banned for 2 years..he deserves it...but you guys deserve a ban for being so harsh when you don't know much of DMs job... |
I was taking you seriously until i read this bit, goodnight. |
Ok Bonger, Ill retract it..I want to debate and don't want to go OTT..
Rgds
Lucho |
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Flabio Chubbolinni
E, Silver
Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 582
Location: Getting the Miles in
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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It seems that you can't mention David Millar's name in a post without going over all the old ground again. The reason I put the post up was to look to the future, David was and is a very talented rider it would be a great shame if we never see him ride at the highest level again.
_________________
" I can't climb, I can't sprint or time trial, Guess I'm just a good all-rounder"
Dean Tranter |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucho wrote: |
| bonger wrote: |
| Lucho wrote: |
| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
I guess you never lied before..never done anything you're ashamed of? I think DM has been forced out of any role in cycling. I'm glad he's been banned for 2 years..he deserves it...but you guys deserve a ban for being so harsh when you don't know much of DMs job... |
I was taking you seriously until i read this bit, goodnight. |
Ok Bonger, Ill retract it..I want to debate and don't want to go OTT..
Rgds
Lucho |
I understand why he did it, possibly because i have as much of an idea of his job than most. I just don't think it's the way to go. As Chubo said it's all been said before anyway.
The point i have said before is that i know young riders busting a gut on the continent, and if the clean ones will never make it because there are other willing to cheat because they know they will get away with it or even if they do get found out they can come back from it then what's the point of the sport? It drops right down there with football.
I have got to go to bed, i have been ill for 2 weeks now, i need some good *CENSORED* to sort this one out. |
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Adam
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 22 Jan 2004
Posts: 7258
Location: London
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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Okay, Lucho I don't want to get an arguement going again, but this is my say:
David Millar's main mistake and problem, was being British. We are patriotic to an incredible extent, you/we feel he has betrayed us by cheating and effectively lying for a while.
But, contary to common belief; David Millar is not an axe murderer, a serial rapist or a terrorist. Please don't treat him like one. You're blowing it out of great proportion.
David Millar cheated, no doubt.
Above this very computer, I have a poster of him and a signed postcard both mounted in a frame. It hasn't moved or even thought of being moved in the one year and two months.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I don't hate *CENSORED* addicts, I don't hate people who have teenage pregnancies, or make incredible mistakes and I'm sure (most) of you don't spend time persecuting any of the above on online forums; you do howver give David Millar this such pleasure. I do however, quite dislike society.
"if I see david millar at the ToB i'm gonna kick his head in" -A very intelligent VR user. Patriotism is one thing, blowing everything out of all great proportion is another. David Millar is guilty, but true credit must be given for coming out and admitting it. You're forgetting that if he kept his mouth shut he would have got away with it, honesty did him no real favours. Two year ban with or without the lies, credit must be due.
It is, as with teenage pregnancy and *CENSORED* users; the society and culture in the world and more relevantly around bike racing that has to be stopped. UCI must work harder (and I'm sure you can do it) - While there is people who want to be the best, there are always people who wish to cheat to achieve that, the easy way out.
The Americans, the Germans, the French don't hate David Millar, our culture and 'hard' approach to countrymen who betray our trust and support however cause us great discomfort of the idea of David Millar so much as riding to the post office again. The french still love Richard Virenque, and in my opinion he should be rightfully banned (for life), even imprisoned, but yet a massive broadcasting corporation still choose to use him as a pundit.
But, we don't care about him do we?
If David Millar comes back and commits again, fair enough; persecute him. Currently, I don't think it's his fault, he followed the trend and was foolish and clearly regretted it. If he does it again, I'll go back on everything I say and join the Lucho gang. Although, I personally don't agree with the way he hasn't followed on his 'promises' of helping kids to shorten his sentence.
See you in 10 months David.
_________________
http://fusion-media.co.uk
http://twitter.com/adamtranter
Last edited by Adam on Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stalwart
E, Silver
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Posts: 1098
Location: Edinburgh
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| AdamTranter wrote: |
Okay, Lucho I don't want to get an arguement going again, but this is my say:
David Millar's main mistake and problem, was being British. We are patriotic to an incredible extent, you/we feel he has betrayed us by cheating and effectively lying for a while.
But, contary to common belief; David Millar is not an axe murderer, a serial rapist or a terrorist. Please don't treat him like one. You're blowing it out of great proportion.
David Millar cheated, no doubt.
Above this very computer, I have a poster of him and a signed postcard both mounted in a frame. It hasn't moved or even thought of being moved in the one year and two months.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I don't hate *CENSORED* addicts, I don't hate people who have teenage pregnancies, or make incredible mistakes and I'm sure (most) of you don't spend time persecuting any of the above on online forums; you do howver give David Millar this such pleasure. I do however, quite dislike society.
"if I see david millar at the ToB i'm gonna kick his head in" -A very intelligent VR user. Patriotism is one thing, blowing everything out of all great proportion is another. David Millar is guilty, but true credit must be given for coming out and admitting it. You're forgetting that if he kept his mouth shut he would have got away with it, honesty did him no real favours. Two year ban with or without the lies, credit must be due.
It is, as with teenage pregnancy and *CENSORED* users; the society and culture in the world and more relevantly around bike racing that has to be stopped. UCI must work harder (and I'm sure you can do it) - While there is people who want to be the best, there are always people who wish to cheat to achieve that, the easy way out.
The Americans, the Germans, the French don't hate David Millar, our culture and 'hard' approach to countrymen who betray our trust and support. The french still love Richard Virenque, and in my opinion he should be rightfully banned (for life), even imprisoned, but yet a massive broadcasting corporating still choose to use him as a pundit.
But, we don't care about him do we?
If David Millar comes back and commits again, fair enough; persecute him. Currently, I don't think it's his fault, he followed the trend and was foolish and clearly regretted it. If he does it again, I'll go back on everything I say and join the Lucho gang. Although, I personally don't agree with the way he hasn't followed on his 'promises' of helping kids to shorten his sentence.
See you in 10 months David. |
Well said, I have to say Adam.
_________________
You never lose class, only form. |
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Lee
World Champ
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 12612
Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:50 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Adam
_________________
| Tucker wrote: |
| But, on reflection, you're probably right... |
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Lee
World Champ
Joined: 12 Jul 2002
Posts: 12612
Location: Hertfordshire
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 8:56 pm Post subject: |
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"If you believe it's back and white it's easy to judge, but it's not that clearcut. You can take this (EPO), earn £100k a year and have financial security. The likes of the riders at Festina made the choice and now have to live with it. I was very fortunate that there was something I could do, something I could use and that had value. When you see some-one like (former teammate) Nicholas Aubier driving a taxi with his morals intact, you realise it's a  choice for guys who did not have a speciality as I did." Chris Boardman on doping.
_________________
| Tucker wrote: |
| But, on reflection, you're probably right... |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, well said Adam.
In the real world, the murder rate is independent of whether there is capital punishment or not.
In our world, the level of punishment will not affect whether people take *CENSORED* or not.
It is well established that the level of possible punishment does not deter. It is vastly more the probability of detection which does - at the *CENSORED* level, look at the behaviour of motorists around speed cameras.
So any, and sadly there are many, who advocate severe punishment as a deterrent are simply fooling themselves.
_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
Yes, well said Adam.
In the real world, the murder rate is independent of whether there is capital punishment or not.
In our world, the level of punishment will not affect whether people take *CENSORED* or not.
It is well established that the level of possible punishment does not deter. It is vastly more the probability of detection which does - at the *CENSORED* level, look at the behaviour of motorists around speed cameras.
So any, and sadly there are many, who advocate severe punishment as a deterrent are simply fooling themselves. |
ok so what do you suggest then ? what about serial offenders like frigo ?
_________________
lector benevole absit invidia
Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
Yes, well said Adam.
In the real world, the murder rate is independent of whether there is capital punishment or not.
In our world, the level of punishment will not affect whether people take *CENSORED* or not.
It is well established that the level of possible punishment does not deter. It is vastly more the probability of detection which does - at the *CENSORED* level, look at the behaviour of motorists around speed cameras.
So any, and sadly there are many, who advocate severe punishment as a deterrent are simply fooling themselves. |
ok so what do you suggest then ? what about serial offenders like frigo ? |
I don't have any answers, I wish I did.
I'm disgusted that Goverments, fall all their much vaunted 'war on *CENSORED*' won't require *CENSORED* companies to 'mark' their products, which I'm told isn't so difficult to do.
I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught.
_________________
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
Yes, well said Adam.
In the real world, the murder rate is independent of whether there is capital punishment or not.
In our world, the level of punishment will not affect whether people take *CENSORED* or not.
It is well established that the level of possible punishment does not deter. It is vastly more the probability of detection which does - at the *CENSORED* level, look at the behaviour of motorists around speed cameras.
So any, and sadly there are many, who advocate severe punishment as a deterrent are simply fooling themselves. |
ok so what do you suggest then ? what about serial offenders like frigo ? |
I don't have any answers, I wish I did.
I'm disgusted that Goverments, fall all their much vaunted 'war on *CENSORED*' won't require *CENSORED* companies to 'mark' their products, which I'm told isn't so difficult to do.
I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take. 
_________________
lector benevole absit invidia
Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
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Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
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| AdamTranter wrote: |
Okay, Lucho I don't want to get an arguement going again, but this is my say:
David Millar's main mistake and problem, was being British. We are patriotic to an incredible extent, you/we feel he has betrayed us by cheating and effectively lying for a while.
But, contary to common belief; David Millar is not an axe murderer, a serial rapist or a terrorist. Please don't treat him like one. You're blowing it out of great proportion.
David Millar cheated, no doubt.
Above this very computer, I have a poster of him and a signed postcard both mounted in a frame. It hasn't moved or even thought of being moved in the one year and two months.
Don't hate the player, hate the game.
I don't hate *CENSORED* addicts, I don't hate people who have teenage pregnancies, or make incredible mistakes and I'm sure (most) of you don't spend time persecuting any of the above on online forums; you do howver give David Millar this such pleasure. I do however, quite dislike society.
"if I see david millar at the ToB i'm gonna kick his head in" -A very intelligent VR user. Patriotism is one thing, blowing everything out of all great proportion is another. David Millar is guilty, but true credit must be given for coming out and admitting it. You're forgetting that if he kept his mouth shut he would have got away with it, honesty did him no real favours. Two year ban with or without the lies, credit must be due.
It is, as with teenage pregnancy and *CENSORED* users; the society and culture in the world and more relevantly around bike racing that has to be stopped. UCI must work harder (and I'm sure you can do it) - While there is people who want to be the best, there are always people who wish to cheat to achieve that, the easy way out.
The Americans, the Germans, the French don't hate David Millar, our culture and 'hard' approach to countrymen who betray our trust and support however cause us great discomfort of the idea of David Millar so much as riding to the post office again. The french still love Richard Virenque, and in my opinion he should be rightfully banned (for life), even imprisoned, but yet a massive broadcasting corporation still choose to use him as a pundit.
But, we don't care about him do we?
If David Millar comes back and commits again, fair enough; persecute him. Currently, I don't think it's his fault, he followed the trend and was foolish and clearly regretted it. If he does it again, I'll go back on everything I say and join the Lucho gang. Although, I personally don't agree with the way he hasn't followed on his 'promises' of helping kids to shorten his sentence.
See you in 10 months David. |
Adam,
I agree. When David comes back he's on a clean slate. I hope he does come back. 2 years is a long long time away at that level. Is David Millar still cycling?
Lee, that Boardman quote is very telling. It adds to what Hampsten said. Hamspten said he didn't envy any young amateur , with the choices they were faced with,coming into pro cycling in the 1990s. I wish some hardline VRers would consider taking on Boardman and Hampsten's views about the doping dilemma. Both guys were clean and know a bit more about pro cycling than us.. |
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