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| Will David Millar ride for a Protour Team in 2006? |
| Yes |
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| No |
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33% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 53 |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take.  |
Stretch, you are not saying that all doping is carried out without the teams' knowledge, are you? As I understand it, the vast majority is endemic and organised and supplied by the teams, semi-officially.
In any case, it's simply a question of rules. If you make it clear that the teams are responsible for the riders' condition and will be penalised for infraction, they will introduce controls better than the UCI can. And if riders know that (for instance) their prize money and/or wages will be lost if any one of them is found positive, they too will be vigilant.
Remember, I didn't say I had good ideas; just less bad (since nothing can be worse) than the regime we have now.
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monk
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| i don't know if millar we be back on the bike, he always said how it was a job to him, and stopped him enjoying things like the literature he loved. But for my money there's enough riders who weren't good enough to win big races or world champs even when loaded with epo and god knows what, to suggest millar is strong enough to make it back in a team and forge a living, even if clean. He has the class, its whether the motivation's there. Frigo the burk was given a 2nd chance, and millar's squeaky in comparison. |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean. |
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cakeathon
E, Silver
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Bristol, Alveston
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean.
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yes it is, shame he didnt have the belief that he could ride at that level without epo.
Self belief is a much bigger performance enhancer than *CENSORED* IMHO.
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Chris Madge
Severn RC,
"what are you talking about !" - Edna Mode |
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superstar kyle
E, Bronze
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| cakeathon wrote: |
| Quote: |
What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean.
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yes it is, shame he didnt have the belief that he could ride at that level without epo.
Self belief is a much bigger performance enhancer than *CENSORED* IMHO. |
wasn't it Graham Obree who said that the effects of performance enhancers are all in your head. for what it's worth i hope dave millar comes back, i think his punishment was too harsh, another rider whose punishment i think was far to harsh was Jamie Alberts, it should have been his team banned not him for supplying him with an incorrect list of banned substances.
Kyle |
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topskull
E, Silver
Joined: 10 Sep 2003
Posts: 1219
Location: North West
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: dave millar |
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I want to see Millar back on the bike that man has class. Yes he cheated himself and us. He pi$$ed me off with the lies.
But I am not too sure if he cheated the results because I could not be sure that he was the only dirty rider.
So let him get on with it! |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:07 am Post subject: |
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| superstar kyle wrote: |
| cakeathon wrote: |
| Quote: |
What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean.
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yes it is, shame he didnt have the belief that he could ride at that level without epo.
Self belief is a much bigger performance enhancer than *CENSORED* IMHO. |
wasn't it Graham Obree who said that the effects of performance enhancers are all in your head. for what it's worth i hope dave millar comes back, i think his punishment was too harsh, another rider whose punishment i think was far to harsh was Jamie Alberts, it should have been his team banned not him for supplying him with an incorrect list of banned substances.
Kyle |
Whoever it was they were wrong. |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:24 am Post subject: |
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| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
Oh so he does coke, heroin, crack as well. Well versed in the subject then.
If he went to schools and talked about EPO they'd all fall asleep
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Pierre Head wrote: |
| AdamTranter wrote: |
| I thought he was going to educate school kids about *CENSORED*, I haven't been educated yet; and to my knowledge no-one else has. |
Oh so he does coke, heroin, crack as well. Well versed in the subject then.
If he went to schools and talked about EPO they'd all fall asleep |
Don't tar all kids with the same brush PH.
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cakeathon
E, Silver
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 525
Location: Bristol, Alveston
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:29 am Post subject: |
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EPO will make you go faster on a bike - its not all in the head.
However for Dave Millar EPO gave him the belief that he could be on the podium for the worlds. Without it DM didnt believe he could be competitive whereas he was phyisically capable of doing it, if not mentally.
Thus my comment that self belief is a better performance enhancer than *CENSORED*. Its gets the competitor into the right mindset - the winning attitude, that makes him/her look at what he/she needs to do to achieve their goal, be it more training, more rest, better equipment etc etc etc.
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Chris Madge
Severn RC,
"what are you talking about !" - Edna Mode |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Lee wrote: |
| Well said Adam |
Nice post Adam, but it was Phillipe Gromont who blew the whistle on DM after he got the sack. THEN Millar admitted it.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:35 am Post subject: |
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| superstar kyle wrote: |
| cakeathon wrote: |
| Quote: |
What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean.
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yes it is, shame he didnt have the belief that he could ride at that level without epo.
Self belief is a much bigger performance enhancer than *CENSORED* IMHO. |
wasn't it Graham Obree who said that the effects of performance enhancers are all in your head. for what it's worth i hope dave millar comes back, i think his punishment was too harsh, another rider whose punishment i think was far to harsh was Jamie Alberts, it should have been his team banned not him for supplying him with an incorrect list of banned substances.
Kyle |
Obree is totally wrong.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:40 am Post subject: |
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| Or whoever said it was, can you hear an echo? |
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murder trainer
E, Silver
Joined: 09 Jan 2004
Posts: 1102
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Pierre Head wrote: |
| Lee wrote: |
| Well said Adam |
Nice post Adam, but it was Phillipe Gromont who blew the whistle on DM after he got the sack. THEN Millar admitted it. |
...........and it was Phillippe Gaumont who said in his book that DM was basically a guy who was psychologically weak! |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| murder trainer wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
| Lee wrote: |
| Well said Adam |
Nice post Adam, but it was Phillipe Gromont who blew the whistle on DM after he got the sack. THEN Millar admitted it. |
...........and it was Phillippe Gaumont who said in his book that DM was basically a guy who was psychologically weak! |
To quote Christine Keeler. ' Well he would say that, wouldn't he?'
I read Paul Kimmage's book, and I don't like that sort of thing. The magic word is OMERTA.
An old Irish rider who I know never mentions anything about it, even though he was disgusted by the widespread use of 'stuff'. It's just chimney corner stuff for the few.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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monk
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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| superstar kyle wrote: |
| cakeathon wrote: |
| Quote: |
What is gutting is that he won the world TT champs by such a margin the chances are he still would have won it clean.
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yes it is, shame he didnt have the belief that he could ride at that level without epo.
Self belief is a much bigger performance enhancer than *CENSORED* IMHO. |
wasn't it Graham Obree who said that the effects of performance enhancers are all in your head. for what it's worth i hope dave millar comes back, i think his punishment was too harsh, another rider whose punishment i think was far to harsh was Jamie Alberts, it should have been his team banned not him for supplying him with an incorrect list of banned substances.
Kyle |
i'm not sure i agree with you about alberts.
You don't accidentally take stanozolol  it's an anabolic steroid with a 3 week clearance time. The *CENSORED* of choice for pro's wanting a quick pick up, athletes who've ducked away from the out of competition, rugby players (that corrie womans brother was caught with just that in jan) in the off season and ben johnson in 1988. Stanozolol is an anabolic steroid and not something you accidnetally take because it wasn't on a banned list. You take it because you're in with a bunch of cheats but you will know it's illegal. If alberts is innocent so was ben johnson. |
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superstar kyle
E, Bronze
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 283
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| if thats the case then i retract my previous statement, i was not to sure exactly what it was he took, however he was only leveling the playing field same as DM. |
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monk
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 16 Mar 2005
Posts: 6589
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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i my view millar and alberts can be seen as similar as they were led by their culture to believe that it was a necessary step they took their chances and they both got caught.
For a period i was supported by people who believed that to move from national to world class you have to 'gear' up. If you believe everyone's on it it can be a tempting step. I race for my own reasons though. The penalty of 2 years is about right for a culture guilt, if you keep doing it though a life ban is the next step. The tammy thomas stuff, technicality after technicality, in the US was ludicrous though. |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Pierre Head wrote: |
| I read Paul Kimmage's book, and I don't like that sort of thing. The magic word is OMERTA.An old Irish rider who I know never mentions anything about it, even though he was disgusted by the widespread use of 'stuff'. |
The power of omerta did (and to an extent still does) support the Mafia. That it lost some of its power was a major force in convicting some of the American dons now in the clink.
Silence is certainly what Armstrong believes in, as his treatment of Bassons amongst others shows.
And newspaper stories abound of police officers, doctors and others standing together in silence to prevent one of their number being tried and convicted.
Is this the role model for professional cyclists?
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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Stuart
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 16263
Location: Thorne
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Is it now 'our thing'?
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