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| Total Votes : 53 |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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 Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
| I read Paul Kimmage's book, and I don't like that sort of thing. The magic word is OMERTA.An old Irish rider who I know never mentions anything about it, even though he was disgusted by the widespread use of 'stuff'. |
The power of omerta did (and to an extent still does) support the Mafia. That it lost some of its power was a major force in convicting some of the American dons now in the clink.
Silence is certainly what Armstrong believes in, as his treatment of Bassons amongst others shows.
And newspaper stories abound of police officers, doctors and others standing together in silence to prevent one of their number being tried and convicted.
Is this the role model for professional cyclists? |
I'm afraid it's the reality of the situation. Just look at it this way, every rider can start with a haemotacrit level of 49.9%, now that's roughly 5% higher than normal.
Personally I can't wait for the Balco Labs. case to get started. Then we'll have some fun.
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Stuart
Moderator
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 16263
Location: Thorne
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Pierre Head wrote: |
[quote="every rider can start with a haemotacrit level of 49.9%, now that's roughly 5% higher than normal.
. |
Pierre - when you say normal, are you refering to the average 'man in the street'?
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'What's up with her? I been hearing that she's been giving that stuff out to all them grafitti guys!' ' Yo, shut the :evil: up, Chico, man!' 'I'd paint 3 of those murals for some of that ass....' |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take.  |
Stretch, you are not saying that all doping is carried out without the teams' knowledge, are you? As I understand it, the vast majority is endemic and organised and supplied by the teams, semi-officially.
In any case, it's simply a question of rules. If you make it clear that the teams are responsible for the riders' condition and will be penalised for infraction, they will introduce controls better than the UCI can. And if riders know that (for instance) their prize money and/or wages will be lost if any one of them is found positive, they too will be vigilant.
Remember, I didn't say I had good ideas; just less bad (since nothing can be worse) than the regime we have now. |
maybe I've misinterpreted your posts roy, I took it that you were advocating a lenient approach to offenders.
For what it's worth my take on it is that when all said and done irrespective of how much pressure one comes under the choice ultimately lies with the individual. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but when they do get caught they've no right to complain about the severity of the punishment, it's a gamble as soon as the needle goes in 'don't get caught, success and hopefully ££££££', 'test positive 2 year ban or whatever' they know what the odds are and they know what the possible outcomes are.
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Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Stuart wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
[quote="every rider can start with a haemotacrit level of 49.9%, now that's roughly 5% higher than normal.
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Pierre - when you say normal, are you refering to the average 'man in the street'? |
no he means someone who lives atop canary wharf, that's where I've gone wrong living in a cellar all these years
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Stuart wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
[quote="every rider can start with a haemotacrit level of 49.9%, now that's roughly 5% higher than normal.
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Pierre - when you say normal, are you refering to the average 'man in the street'? |
Yes I am, and it's more or less the same for athletes. The only people that develop higher levels naturally (still not that high) live at very high altitude.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Stuart wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
[quote="every rider can start with a haemotacrit level of 49.9%, now that's roughly 5% higher than normal.
. |
Pierre - when you say normal, are you refering to the average 'man in the street'? |
no he means someone who lives atop canary wharf, that's where I've gone wrong living in a cellar all these years |
The only thing you know about canaries in Doncaster is that you used to tek 'em darn t'pit.
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:54 pm Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| maybe I've misinterpreted your posts roy, I took it that you were advocating a lenient approach to offenders. |
It's a perfectly fair way of describing the way I look at it, but is only part of what I advocate.
| Quote: |
| For what it's worth my take on it is that when all said and done irrespective of how much pressure one comes under the choice ultimately lies with the individual. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but when they do get caught they've no right to complain about the severity of the punishment, it's a gamble as soon as the needle goes in 'don't get caught, success and hopefully ££££££', 'test positive 2 year ban or whatever' they know what the odds are and they know what the possible outcomes are. |
At the moment we all agree that a majority of riders are dirty; that only the truly exceptional can thrive clean; that the riders come under tremendous pressure to dope; that the riders consider themselves victims; there is an Omerta (see above posts) amongst riders because of their victim status.
A rider could provide well for his family, or drive a cab (again, see above).
I find it impossible to have a harsh view of men who give in.
I despise the system which dopes them up then dumps them if they are caught -- the team managers and doctors risk nothing, yet mostly are just as guilty, as accomplices. The riders are the smallest cogs in a rotten machine.
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take. |
Stretch, you are not saying that all doping is carried out without the teams' knowledge, are you? As I understand it, the vast majority is endemic and organised and supplied by the teams, semi-officially.
In any case, it's simply a question of rules. If you make it clear that the teams are responsible for the riders' condition and will be penalised for infraction, they will introduce controls better than the UCI can. And if riders know that (for instance) their prize money and/or wages will be lost if any one of them is found positive, they too will be vigilant.
Remember, I didn't say I had good ideas; just less bad (since nothing can be worse) than the regime we have now. |
maybe I've misinterpreted your posts roy, I took it that you were advocating a lenient approach to offenders.
For what it's worth my take on it is that when all said and done irrespective of how much pressure one comes under the choice ultimately lies with the individual. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but when they do get caught they've no right to complain about the severity of the punishment, it's a gamble as soon as the needle goes in 'don't get caught, success and hopefully ££££££', 'test positive 2 year ban or whatever' they know what the odds are and they know what the possible outcomes are. |
IMO it's the paymasters who put the riders under pressure to perform, so they resort to 'dopage'. When the rider gets caught the paymasters sack him, it's nowt to do with them is it? They're lying hypocrites.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Pierre Head wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take. |
Stretch, you are not saying that all doping is carried out without the teams' knowledge, are you? As I understand it, the vast majority is endemic and organised and supplied by the teams, semi-officially.
In any case, it's simply a question of rules. If you make it clear that the teams are responsible for the riders' condition and will be penalised for infraction, they will introduce controls better than the UCI can. And if riders know that (for instance) their prize money and/or wages will be lost if any one of them is found positive, they too will be vigilant.
Remember, I didn't say I had good ideas; just less bad (since nothing can be worse) than the regime we have now. |
maybe I've misinterpreted your posts roy, I took it that you were advocating a lenient approach to offenders.
For what it's worth my take on it is that when all said and done irrespective of how much pressure one comes under the choice ultimately lies with the individual. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but when they do get caught they've no right to complain about the severity of the punishment, it's a gamble as soon as the needle goes in 'don't get caught, success and hopefully ££££££', 'test positive 2 year ban or whatever' they know what the odds are and they know what the possible outcomes are. |
IMO it's the paymasters who put the riders under pressure to perform, so they resort to 'dopage'. When the rider gets caught the paymasters sack him, it's nowt to do with them is it? They're lying hypocrites. |
I agree but what i'm saying is the riders know they'll be left high and dry if they get caught, it's a gamble but if you loose and you know the odds beforehand you can't really complain.
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lector benevole absit invidia
Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
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Steve D-T
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucho wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| My views on DM have been well documented - and moderated - on here before. Turn out for to see him do the hour for sure, but lets all turn our backs on him as he rides round. Liar & cheat - good riddance. |
Yeah, and what are your qualifications for your insight? You obviously have been racing mainland Europe and at David Millar, Robert Millar level as an amatuer and also on a team like cofidis where Vuelta organisers say they'll refuse the team without David Millar , you been in a Pro Tour team as well?
prat |
My qualifications?
Honesty & integrity. I dont do liars or cheats.
Prat.
And yours? |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Pierre Head wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| stretch armstrong wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| I've trotted out many times on here the approach I think might work better (could not work worse), which is (in summary) to target the teams' management and medical staff and punish them if their riders are caught. |
how can you punish others? the athlete and solely the athlete is responsible for any substances he or she decides to take. |
Stretch, you are not saying that all doping is carried out without the teams' knowledge, are you? As I understand it, the vast majority is endemic and organised and supplied by the teams, semi-officially.
In any case, it's simply a question of rules. If you make it clear that the teams are responsible for the riders' condition and will be penalised for infraction, they will introduce controls better than the UCI can. And if riders know that (for instance) their prize money and/or wages will be lost if any one of them is found positive, they too will be vigilant.
Remember, I didn't say I had good ideas; just less bad (since nothing can be worse) than the regime we have now. |
maybe I've misinterpreted your posts roy, I took it that you were advocating a lenient approach to offenders.
For what it's worth my take on it is that when all said and done irrespective of how much pressure one comes under the choice ultimately lies with the individual. I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong but when they do get caught they've no right to complain about the severity of the punishment, it's a gamble as soon as the needle goes in 'don't get caught, success and hopefully ££££££', 'test positive 2 year ban or whatever' they know what the odds are and they know what the possible outcomes are. |
IMO it's the paymasters who put the riders under pressure to perform, so they resort to 'dopage'. When the rider gets caught the paymasters sack him, it's nowt to do with them is it? They're lying hypocrites. |
I agree but what i'm saying is the riders know they'll be left high and dry if they get caught, it's a gamble but if you loose and you know the odds beforehand you can't really complain. |
That's the clef stick. It's six of one and half a dozen of the other. The higher up the greasy pole you get, the more the money rolls in. Contrary to general belief most of the riders don't earn vast amounts of money.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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Pierre Head
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 06 Apr 2005
Posts: 7839
Location: Albert Dock
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| sXe wrote: |
| Lucho wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| My views on DM have been well documented - and moderated - on here before. Turn out for to see him do the hour for sure, but lets all turn our backs on him as he rides round. Liar & cheat - good riddance. |
Yeah, and what are your qualifications for your insight? You obviously have been racing mainland Europe and at David Millar, Robert Millar level as an amatuer and also on a team like cofidis where Vuelta organisers say they'll refuse the team without David Millar , you been in a Pro Tour team as well?
prat |
My qualifications?
Honesty & integrity. I dont do liars or cheats.
Prat.
And yours? |
Which reminds me, I've fined you two weeks wages, and booked you in on an anger management course with Mike Tyson and Wayne Rooney.
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't Ros Beijaart.
De lange zwarte wolk blijft mij volgen. |
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Lucho
E, Bronze
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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| sXe wrote: |
| Lucho wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| My views on DM have been well documented - and moderated - on here before. Turn out for to see him do the hour for sure, but lets all turn our backs on him as he rides round. Liar & cheat - good riddance. |
Yeah, and what are your qualifications for your insight? You obviously have been racing mainland Europe and at David Millar, Robert Millar level as an amatuer and also on a team like cofidis where Vuelta organisers say they'll refuse the team without David Millar , you been in a Pro Tour team as well?
prat |
My qualifications?
Honesty & integrity. I dont do liars or cheats.
Prat.
And yours? |
In other words you know little about the job of procyclist in a pro tour team . You never done anything wrong in your life? Never lied, never cheated....you know nothing about the presure on pro cyclists...sling your hook |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Answer his quetion before you start telling him to sling his hook. I don't think being under pressure is an excuse for breaking the law is it? Maybe sxe will be suffering from pressure if he chose to break the law? |
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Steve D-T
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Lucho wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| Lucho wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| My views on DM have been well documented - and moderated - on here before. Turn out for to see him do the hour for sure, but lets all turn our backs on him as he rides round. Liar & cheat - good riddance. |
Yeah, and what are your qualifications for your insight? You obviously have been racing mainland Europe and at David Millar, Robert Millar level as an amatuer and also on a team like cofidis where Vuelta organisers say they'll refuse the team without David Millar , you been in a Pro Tour team as well?
prat |
My qualifications?
Honesty & integrity. I dont do liars or cheats.
Prat.
And yours? |
In other words you know little about the job of procyclist in a pro tour team . You never done anything wrong in your life? Never lied, never cheated....you know nothing about the presure on pro cyclists...sling your hook |
That a fact?
Done loads wrong in my life but never lied about it. Not much anyway.
And for your information I'm 35 now - when I was in my very early 20's I raced in belgium for a team called Albers Mazda - Zuidland (do your research if you dont believe me) and was an average 1st cat long before the days before elite. The only reason I packed up was that I had a *CENSORED* back in the UK and actually wanted to earn some money rather than living off cabbage and chips and living in a stinking 2 bed flat with 6 other cyclists. So dont get self righteous with me a$$hole - and answer the question or go f*** yourself. Better still - come say it to my face. |
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Zeco2
E, Gold
Joined: 10 Feb 2005
Posts: 2190
Location: Prickwillow
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't bothered to read through all of the replies on this thread because the subject has been raised many times before.
What I find disconcerting is that some of the severest critics of *CENSORED* taking in sport will admit to indulging in so-called 'recreational *CENSORED*'.
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeco2 wrote: |
| What I find disconcerting is that some of the severest critics of *CENSORED* taking in sport will admit to indulging in so-called 'recreational *CENSORED*'. |
*CENSORED* in sport are cheating. Recreational *CENSORED* are to get off your head, some legal some not. I believe it's correct that (a) *CENSORED* in sport should be illegal (b) *CENSORED* in real life should not. Why is that disconcerting?
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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Tony Bell
T de F Winner
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 25203
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| sXe wrote: |
| ...Turn out for to see him do the hour for sure, but lets all turn our backs on him as he rides round. Liar & cheat - good riddance. |
I don't know about you, but in my case if past misdeeds couldn't be paid for, underlined and finished with I'd be in a sorry state. I say let him back; he's no worse than a majority of his professional colleagues anyway. |
My thoughts entirely Royston. |
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stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| Zeco2 wrote: |
| What I find disconcerting is that some of the severest critics of *CENSORED* taking in sport will admit to indulging in so-called 'recreational *CENSORED*'. |
*CENSORED* in sport are cheating. Recreational *CENSORED* are to get off your head, some legal some not. I believe it's correct that (a) *CENSORED* in sport should be illegal (b) *CENSORED* in real life should not. Why is that disconcerting? |
tell you what Roy nip down to your local red light district and look at some of the poor wasted young lives that have been wrecked by heroin abuse then come back and tell me that Smack should be perfectly Legal and accesible to anyone and everyone
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Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
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bonger
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Zeco2 wrote: |
I haven't bothered to read through all of the replies on this thread because the subject has been raised many times before.
What I find disconcerting is that some of the severest critics of *CENSORED* taking in sport will admit to indulging in so-called 'recreational *CENSORED*'.
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 who? |
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