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| are british cycling useless? |
| yes |
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32% |
[ 26 ] |
| no |
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67% |
[ 53 ] |
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| Total Votes : 79 |
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| Author |
Message |
troy spartan
E, Gold
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 2605
Location: peoples republic of south yorkshire
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 Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 1:22 am Post subject: Re: are british cycling useless? |
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| De Rosa wrote: |
| racault wrote: |
| after their recent cave-in to the coppers and the general failure to promote road-races. what do you think? |
Presumably you are out there promoting loads of road races yourself? |
The biggest problem with cycling and some movers and shakers at BC is comments like the one above. Whenever anyone suggests that not everything is great they get all defensive and spit their dummy out. It's true some people are just having a go. But is this really the way to encourage people to get involved? I certainly don't think so. It also makes no sense harping on about the good points in defense of the bad. Until some quarters can work with criticism and not against it we'll be left with an ever dwindling bunch of organisers and a disgruntled membership.
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Lillywhite
E, Silver
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1574
Location: The Welland Valley
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:59 am Post subject: Re: are british cycling useless? |
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| troy spartan wrote: |
| De Rosa wrote: |
| racault wrote: |
| after their recent cave-in to the coppers and the general failure to promote road-races. what do you think? |
Presumably you are out there promoting loads of road races yourself? |
The biggest problem with cycling and some movers and shakers at BC is comments like the one above. Whenever anyone suggests that not everything is great they get all defensive and spit their dummy out. It's true some people are just having a go. But is this really the way to encourage people to get involved? I certainly don't think so. It also makes no sense harping on about the good points in defense of the bad. Until some quarters can work with criticism and not against it we'll be left with an ever dwindling bunch of organisers and a disgruntled membership. |
I thought De Rosa's retort was a fair response to someone who has started a thread bemoaning the fact the the governing body is at fault for there being insufficient road races in the UK. Our friend who thinks the BC is useless obviously doesn't understand the sport or has ever attended a date-fixing meeting at his club when the road race programme is usually resolved. Perhaps the reason that we have an ever dwindling bunch of organisers is because too many people are prepared to criticise the governing body without getting off their backside to help at a local (club) level.
The BC have put the infrastructure in place to enable clubs to promote road races. Perhaps there is now a shortage of suitable events because there are now not the people around prepared to organise events. You can't blame the BC for that. |
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rothers
E, Gold
Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Posts: 2363
Location: Mancland
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 8:20 am Post subject: |
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BC are like a kettle...
You pay your money and you forget about it.. You don't jump up and down with joy every time it boils...
But the one time it fails you don't half bang on about it..
They're doing a great job with Count Dookoo at the helm |
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dockeca
Div 2 Pro
Joined: 27 Feb 2002
Posts: 4741
Location: halfway up the South Downs - or halfway down the South Ups!
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 9:18 am Post subject: |
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Of course, any organisation can improve. It's called progress.
As to the comment about the cost of racing, well from an organisational point of view riders expect decent facilities, HQ, lead cars, neutral service if possible, NEG escort so they feel safer. This all hs to be oaid for, and sponsors/supporters are not easy to come by, even tougher to keep. Ask any organiser! So where does the money come from? The competitors. Is this equation too simple to understand for the "too expensive" brigade?
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Doc
"Any views expressed are entirely my own and not representative of any organisation of which I may or may not be a member. Unless I say otherwise."
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Lillywhite
E, Silver
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1574
Location: The Welland Valley
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:59 am Post subject: |
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| dockeca wrote: |
| So where does the money come from? The competitors. Is this equation too simple to understand for the "too expensive" brigade? |
I don't think this was meant to be a criticism, just an observation. I believe most riders appreciate the organiser's costs in providing all the back-up facilities particularly for most club events where significant sponsorship is hard to find hence entry fess around the £15 mark.
I think cost of travel to the events needs to be factored in as well from a rider's point of view. |
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StuartBen
E, Silver
Joined: 21 Oct 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: West London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Lillywhite wrote:
| Quote: |
| Perhaps there is now a shortage of suitable events |
Has anyone produced a proper analysis to prove that there is a national shortage of events?
Or is this only relevant to certain areas?
If there is a shortage of events, why are organisers cancelling races for alleged unviably low entries? This does not make sense.
Perhaps a proper survey should be made to analyse how many events there are catering for each category of rider and at what intervals and in each area (likely to be smaller than Regions, which are generally far too big for reasonable travel to events).
It would be quite a task and my guess is that it would result in showing that the present programme is not greatly missing the target, give or take a few local glitches. |
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Lillywhite
E, Silver
Joined: 06 Jun 2005
Posts: 1574
Location: The Welland Valley
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 12:33 pm Post subject: |
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| StuartBen wrote: |
Or is this only relevant to certain areas?
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I'm no longer actively involved but I have drawn the conclusion from reading comments on this message board and talking to my son that there does not seem to be the opportunity to road race without considerable travel that existed 5-6 years ago.
I guess that some areas, the North East for example, have more problems that the Midlands.
Perhaps this is something that needs to be analysed in greater depth by BC finding out the reason why a particular event is no longer organised? |
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troy spartan
E, Gold
Joined: 04 Apr 2004
Posts: 2605
Location: peoples republic of south yorkshire
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: are british cycling useless? |
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| Lillywhite wrote: |
| troy spartan wrote: |
| De Rosa wrote: |
| racault wrote: |
| after their recent cave-in to the coppers and the general failure to promote road-races. what do you think? |
Presumably you are out there promoting loads of road races yourself? |
The biggest problem with cycling and some movers and shakers at BC is comments like the one above. Whenever anyone suggests that not everything is great they get all defensive and spit their dummy out. It's true some people are just having a go. But is this really the way to encourage people to get involved? I certainly don't think so. It also makes no sense harping on about the good points in defense of the bad. Until some quarters can work with criticism and not against it we'll be left with an ever dwindling bunch of organisers and a disgruntled membership. |
I thought De Rosa's retort was a fair response to someone who has started a thread bemoaning the fact the the governing body is at fault for there being insufficient road races in the UK. Our friend who thinks the BC is useless obviously doesn't understand the sport or has ever attended a date-fixing meeting at his club when the road race programme is usually resolved. Perhaps the reason that we have an ever dwindling bunch of organisers is because too many people are prepared to criticise the governing body without getting off their backside to help at a local (club) level.
The BC have put the infrastructure in place to enable clubs to promote road races. Perhaps there is now a shortage of suitable events because there are now not the people around prepared to organise events. You can't blame the BC for that. |
Thanks for emphasising my point. Obviously your post goes a long way in helping to overcome the problems you have highlighted  . I'm sure many more BC members who obviously don't understand the sport will feel encouraged to step forward and have a go themself now you've taken the time to consider their point of view and discussed their concerns  .
_________________
Life is pain, pain is everything, You will learn.
Life's short but hard like a bodybuilding elf.
Fun whilst it lasted.
www.whiteknightrc.com |
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Max Drury
E, Silver
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1542
Location: Drury Lane
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Thomo wrote: |
| Vetman wrote: |
| Road racing is still a secret sport in this country. That's the way the authorities like it. No use in getting too many kids hooked just causes a nuisance on the raods. BC, bless them, are lottery funded. Medals on the track...that's the name of the game! |
Vetman is a backwards looking imbicile... Certainly not the forwards looking organisation that is spending huge amounts of lottery and sponsorship money from multinationals in promoting the past-time and sport to as many kids as they can get hold of. He obviously hasn't seen the numbers of road stars we are now creating, some with quite clear chances of gaining the upper reaches of the ladder (as opposed to no chance we had before, one or two exceptional people excepted). He hasn't noticed that the worlds biggest bike race is going to be in the UK for a few days in 2007. That race will likely see the most UK professionals start the event since the days of the ANC team of 1987-who were a one-off anyway. Many of those will have started off on that track medal hunt
of the past few years... Ironically many of those road pro's have been forced to seek these jobs as the track is becoming too difficult to guarantee them a place in the squad as we have so much talent coming up though the younger ranks that there is fierce competition for such places - most of them coming through the well set up system from schools though to Olympics and beyond that even the Aussies are looking at it to see where they can improve. We have so many World Champs that if you go to a Revolution track meet you have difficulties pinpointing which rider is which as they all seem to be wearing rainbow bands on their chests!
Yes they do have a lot still to do and they do seem to be making noises in the right direction on some of those. It's not quick enough for some, but then things like converting the British press and Public into a cycling mad and fanatical supporter is going to be a little tougher than making us the best cycling nation in the world. But it's a bloody good start.
Paul |
If you're going to insult someones intelligence, at least spell it right, imbecile.
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Women are like dog doo
The older they are, the easier they are to pick up. |
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Dr Ferrari
E, Silver
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 779
Location: geordieland
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Lillywhite wrote: |
| StuartBen wrote: |
Or is this only relevant to certain areas?
|
I'm no longer actively involved but I have drawn the conclusion from reading comments on this message board and talking to my son that there does not seem to be the opportunity to road race without considerable travel that existed 5-6 years ago.
I guess that some areas, the North East for example, have more problems that the Midlands.
Perhaps this is something that needs to be analysed in greater depth by BC finding out the reason why a particular event is no longer organised? |
IMHO Im Unsure if it is certain areas!,as from my understanding there are not the races there were 10years ago across the whole of the uk!.. |
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Rosbif
E, Silver
Joined: 19 Oct 2006
Posts: 1792
Location: London
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Dr Ferrari wrote: |
| Lillywhite wrote: |
| StuartBen wrote: |
Or is this only relevant to certain areas?
|
I'm no longer actively involved but I have drawn the conclusion from reading comments on this message board and talking to my son that there does not seem to be the opportunity to road race without considerable travel that existed 5-6 years ago.
I guess that some areas, the North East for example, have more problems that the Midlands.
Perhaps this is something that needs to be analysed in greater depth by BC finding out the reason why a particular event is no longer organised? |
IMHO Im Unsure if it is certain areas!,as from my understanding there are not the races there were 10years ago across the whole of the uk!.. |
There's also more traffic, less cyclists and higher insurance costs and red tape than a decade ago |
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De Rosa
World Champ
Joined: 04 Dec 2002
Posts: 10485
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: are british cycling useless? |
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| troy spartan wrote: |
| De Rosa wrote: |
| racault wrote: |
| after their recent cave-in to the coppers and the general failure to promote road-races. what do you think? |
Presumably you are out there promoting loads of road races yourself? |
The biggest problem with cycling and some movers and shakers at BC is comments like the one above. Whenever anyone suggests that not everything is great they get all defensive and spit their dummy out. It's true some people are just having a go. But is this really the way to encourage people to get involved? I certainly don't think so. It also makes no sense harping on about the good points in defense of the bad. Until some quarters can work with criticism and not against it we'll be left with an ever dwindling bunch of organisers and a disgruntled membership. |
Troy I honestly was not being defensive or spitting my dummy out - I don't have anything to be defensive about. I don't work for BC and never have done and I don't even hold any divisional post and never have done. (I admire those that do). I have done/do organise some races but on a fairly limited scale. But I generally think that there are loads of people who say "Something ought to be done" but don't actually do a great deal. When people say "BC should be doing this or organising that" I think they are often unaware of how few paid officials there are at Manchester - excluding the staff who are paid for, by certain non-licence fee funding, which means their duties are effectively ring-fenced and have to be very specific. If everyone who ever said "Something ought to be done" actually went and did that something, then we would be in a great position.
I think the comments from people like Pete Mooney, Colin Docker and Stuart Benstead are highly relevant as they clearly are at the sharp end of contributing and organising.
From the limited experience I have of meeting people who work in Manchester I would say they do get out and about and are aware of the grass roots of the sport - it doesn't mean everyone is going to agree with each other though. I don't agree with the current view on junior licences but it doesn't mean I am right and "they" are wrong.
I can't personally see why staff working at Manchester should have to organise races - they are paid a relatively low salary and I think the vast majority of them already spend many hours at weekends or on evenings on BC duties. I have certainly seen many of them at races and events at grass roots level. |
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Killer C
E, Silver
Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 982
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: |
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This isn't meant to be a criticism of British Cycling, but I think it is an area where they need to become involved ...
My great concern is that it is becoming increasingly difficult to promote races on the road. Where I live (between Portsmouth and Chichester), most of the courses we used to use are no longer viable, hence we are largely reliant on closed circuits, e.g. Thruxton, Goodwood, Barnsfield. The problem is that if one becomes unavailable, as happened with Barnsfield and now possibly Goodwood, we suddenly lose a lot of races. Some of these places are also very expensive to hire (e.g. Chobham) [digression: which I think is a cheek as we pay for the MOD through our taxes - Ok off soap box now]. |
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Tony Bell
T de F Winner
Joined: 06 Aug 2003
Posts: 25203
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| Posted: Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Think back to 1995, and the old BCF. And then tell me that things haven't improved in ways we couldn't have imagined back then. |
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Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| Rosbif wrote: |
There's also more traffic, less cyclists and higher insurance costs and red tape than a decade ago |
Numbers of BC members, licence holders and cyclists in general are up on 10 years ago
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:21 am Post subject: |
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| Max Drury wrote: |
| Thomo wrote: |
| Vetman wrote: |
| Road racing is still a secret sport in this country. That's the way the authorities like it. No use in getting too many kids hooked just causes a nuisance on the raods. BC, bless them, are lottery funded. Medals on the track...that's the name of the game! |
Vetman is a backwards looking imbicile... Certainly not the forwards looking organisation that is spending huge amounts of lottery and sponsorship money from multinationals in promoting the past-time and sport to as many kids as they can get hold of. He obviously hasn't seen the numbers of road stars we are now creating, some with quite clear chances of gaining the upper reaches of the ladder (as opposed to no chance we had before, one or two exceptional people excepted). He hasn't noticed that the worlds biggest bike race is going to be in the UK for a few days in 2007. That race will likely see the most UK professionals start the event since the days of the ANC team of 1987-who were a one-off anyway. Many of those will have started off on that track medal hunt
of the past few years... Ironically many of those road pro's have been forced to seek these jobs as the track is becoming too difficult to guarantee them a place in the squad as we have so much talent coming up though the younger ranks that there is fierce competition for such places - most of them coming through the well set up system from schools though to Olympics and beyond that even the Aussies are looking at it to see where they can improve. We have so many World Champs that if you go to a Revolution track meet you have difficulties pinpointing which rider is which as they all seem to be wearing rainbow bands on their chests!
Yes they do have a lot still to do and they do seem to be making noises in the right direction on some of those. It's not quick enough for some, but then things like converting the British press and Public into a cycling mad and fanatical supporter is going to be a little tougher than making us the best cycling nation in the world. But it's a bloody good start.
Paul |
If you're going to insult someones intelligence, at least spell it right, imbecile. |
 not to mention being able to spot irony
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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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leghurty
E, Silver
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Posts: 503
Location: Either North Staffordshire or Ohakune
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:48 am Post subject: |
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Reading through this thread, and I think it all fortifies the case for BC to centrally take charge of the calendar and date fixing. This is my observation and not intended as an over simplification of the whole issue.
As an old organiser, things appear not to have changed too much since the '70's and '80's when I last organised RRs. Shouldn't we/BC be doing more to enable modern organisers to put on decent events in the right place at the right time at the right level?? If so how can it be done, with all due respect, at individual club level? After all, do many other governing bodies of proper sport let important fixture decisions be made like this? (the FA for example).
Again. it's my observation, that this poorly coordinated calendar of events in 2006 left it's market riders with hardly any racing after July and maybe this is having an impact on our road performances.
Not saying it's easy but with a bit of application and central coordination organisers and riders can be happy IMO.
In many other areas BC is doing a great job and is certainly a better gov bod than back in the '70s as I remember. |
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Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| leghurty wrote: |
Again. it's my observation, that this poorly coordinated calendar of events in 2006 left it's market riders with hardly any racing after July and maybe this is having an impact on our road performances.
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Problem with promoting after July, ie. in August and early - mid September is as follows:
August School Holidays - Riders and officials with young families are on holiday - result lower fields and some problem attracting volunteers to marshal etc.
Sept Those without families take advantage of reduced prices to go on holiday after schools go back. As these tend to be the older club members who usually volunteer then attracting officials becomes a big problem. Also a lot of riders finish their season early and thus reduced fields. With sponsorship reduced fields may not be a problem (unless the sponsor wants to see a bigger spectacle for their input) but for unsponsored events that need to break even they are a massive headache.
Hence why I moved our races to June last year.
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sloathe
E, Gold
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 2156
Location: At the pooter
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Vetman wrote: |
| Road racing is still a secret sport in this country. That's the way the authorities like it. No use in getting too many kids hooked just causes a nuisance on the raods. BC, bless them, are lottery funded. Medals on the track...that's the name of the game! |
Can't believe there are still some cranking out this tired old and incorrect misconception.
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sloathe
E, Gold
Joined: 12 Aug 2003
Posts: 2156
Location: At the pooter
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| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Lillywhite wrote: |
| I guess that some areas, the North East for example, have more problems that the Midlands. |
I wouldn't have thought that the North East faces any problem that the rest of the country doesn't. Less in fact as the Northern part of it especially doesn't have the traffic problems that face more heavily built up areas. Against that it has the problem is that doesn't have the associated population either.
Having said it would help if people checked the facts if they want to make viable suggestions. Pete Mooney on another thread asks if the Tour of the Border has been cancelled next year when the BC Calendar clearly states it is on. This year the category restrictions were blamed for the cancellation of the event when the same nearly happened last year due to the low entry.
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