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| Is cycling now a 'middle-class sport'? |
| Yes |
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[ 41 ] |
| No |
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42% |
[ 30 ] |
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| Total Votes : 71 |
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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 Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:56 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Boy wrote: |
| So working in a factory or down a mine isn't a "decent job" then? |
depends on your definition of decent. if you want a hard job and aren't bothered what it pays, or if you don't want a job with an intellectual challenge, and there's plenty of people who would say 'yes' to both of those (and no disrespect to any of them) then of course they are decent jobs. if you want a cervello with a comete and an IO then they aren't. everyone has a reason for doing the job they do, for some it is that it's what happened to be available and to others it's because they chose to do that job. i am theorising that people who fall into the second category will tend to both earn more and be more likely to involve themselves in competitive sport.
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:59 am Post subject: |
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| martin smith wrote: |
| Billy Boy wrote: |
| So working in a factory or down a mine isn't a "decent job" then? |
depends on your definition of decent. if you want a hard job and aren't bothered what it pays, or if you don't want a job with an intellectual challenge, and there's plenty of people who would say 'yes' to both of those (and no disrespect to any of them) then of course they are decent jobs. if you want a cervello with a comete and an IO then they aren't. everyone has a reason for doing the job they do, for some it is that it's what happened to be available and to others it's because they chose to do that job. i am theorising that people who fall into the second category will tend to both earn more and be more likely to involve themselves in competitive sport. |
The inverse could also be said, that to some people their job is purely that, and that they get little or nothing out of it as they put all of their commitment into something else, like sport.
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Dave Griffiths
E, Silver
Joined: 20 Jun 2005
Posts: 1181
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:26 am Post subject: |
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Considering things over the last 50 or so years, regarding club racing cyclists and their jobs, I strongly agree with Martin Smith that most riders, even if they started out in quite poorly paid jobs, ended up being reasonably successful. Many times, I’ve talked things over with anxious parents, who worried that their son was losing out on education due to training and racing. To do any good at cycling (and probably any sport) requires considerable: personal discipline, organisation, personal care, reasonable eating etc etc and, over time, this has an overall very beneficial effect on most. Most clubs have a pretty large spread of careers represented and I’ve often heard simple and helpful advice being given to any who expressed an interest or a wish to make some sort of employment or educational move.
Costs of so – called ‘good bikes’ really have rocketed and could well be off putting to many starters today. I don’t want to get into arguments here but I’m not convinced that it is essential to have a 4k bike in order to race at a reasonable level. I’m sure it would be nice to have two or three such bikes but I would suggest that a fit, young rider could do pretty well on something costing say £500 but he might well (wrongly) feel intimidated by those around him on ‘the best’.
Back in the 1950/60 era, most club cyclists could afford a complete road bike which was VERY close to being as good as that which Coppi, Bobet and Anquetil rode. Choice of kit was very limited and Campag gear sets were affordable, Mavic or Fiamme rims, Brooks saddles, even a custom made steel frame was only £20 or £30.
When Ray Booty swept past me, on a climb approaching an island, on the Leicester ‘Six Hills’ ‘25’ course, he was on his Sturmey-Archer 4 speed hub gears, steel frame and nothing else special – except himself and one realised that ‘he went super fast because he was GOOD’. The pros’ definitely rode good tubs but in general ‘our’ bikes were as theirs
Sportives, particularly the fashionable continental ones ARE expensive and must almost rule out your average young family guy. I reckon it costs around £500 to ride such an event and that sum would cover a load of cycling near one’s home. So I have found that most riders in such events are fairly well off, with many of the older riders being ‘early retirees’, often spending extended time abroad – and good for them! I also know just a few younger, family guys, who manage to make a happy family camping/touring holiday abroad which includes their participating in a few sportives, randonees or races but that does require a very understanding partner! |
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Tom Butcher
E, Silver
Joined: 20 Aug 2003
Posts: 1575
Location: Derby
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:48 am Post subject: |
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It may differ elsewhere but round here there is a real mix - plenty of people who race and work in manual jobs - that's not to day they aren't successful or reasonably well paid. I'm sure most would take exception to any implication that they don't work hard or "make an effort".
"I think most competitive sports will tend to be middle class, purely on the basis that someone who can take a sport seriously enough to be competitive probably isn't going to spend the rest of their life stood in a dole queue. competitive sport, like capitalism, suits those who are prepared to make an effort."
Probably the hardest working person I know is in the worst job, low paid, poor conditions, no autonomy - maybe because he lacks some self confidence and drive to get out of his situation - but he does a full week plus Saturday mornings and gives part of his wage direct to charity every month - it's people like him that capitalism fail. |
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Richard
World Champ
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 14007
Location: Coventry
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| John McC wrote: |
West Midlands "upper class" isn't anything to shout about  |
| John McC wrote: |
| As far as I'm concerned, cycling is a classless sport. |
wow - that's twice in one day/one thread that I'm in agreement with John 
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Richard
World Champ
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 14007
Location: Coventry
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| martin smith wrote: |
| [ do you have that many factory workers in your club? i'll bet hard cash the answer is no. |
actually, there are. In both my running and cycling clubs there are still factory workers due to the city's history as a base for manufacturing industry.
In fact there's one person I know of who still works in a factory but has 2 carbon racing bikes, MTB and a cross bike and his wife has a similar array of machines.
In the running club we do have a spread of professions similar to the cycling club.
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The internet is possibly the greatest bitch fest on earth. Expect anything than relentless ridicule for no good reason and your expectations are set way too high |
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Tom Butcher wrote: |
Probably the hardest working person I know is in the worst job, low paid, poor conditions, no autonomy - maybe because he lacks some self confidence and drive to get out of his situation - but he does a full week plus Saturday mornings and gives part of his wage direct to charity every month - it's people like him that capitalism fail. |
capitalism hasn't failed him at all. the opportunities exist, if someone doesn't take them who else is to blame? there in no-one in this country who, providing they have the ability, cannot get a degree and a well paid job if they want to. the simple fact is that it isn't the path of least resistance so many don't bother. there's no point blaming 'the system', the system is the same for everyone.
and some others like low stress jobs they can walk away from a 5 o'clock. if i worked for someone else i would probably have to work harder but with less stress out of work time, more security and more holiday. it doesn't suit everyone, you pays your money and takes your choice...
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Richard wrote: |
| martin smith wrote: |
| [ do you have that many factory workers in your club? i'll bet hard cash the answer is no. |
actually, there are. In both my running and cycling clubs there are still factory workers due to the city's history as a base for manufacturing industry.
In fact there's one person I know of who still works in a factory but has 2 carbon racing bikes, MTB and a cross bike and his wife has a similar array of machines.
In the running club we do have a spread of professions similar to the cycling club. |
did i say hard cash, er, um, i meant monopoly money of course  
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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:01 am Post subject: |
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| martin smith wrote: |
| Tom Butcher wrote: |
Probably the hardest working person I know is in the worst job, low paid, poor conditions, no autonomy - maybe because he lacks some self confidence and drive to get out of his situation - but he does a full week plus Saturday mornings and gives part of his wage direct to charity every month - it's people like him that capitalism fail. |
capitalism hasn't failed him at all. the opportunities exist, if someone doesn't take them who else is to blame? there in no-one in this country who, providing they have the ability, cannot get a degree and a well paid job if they want to. the simple fact is that it isn't the path of least resistance so many don't bother. there's no point blaming 'the system', the system is the same for everyone.
and some others like low stress jobs they can walk away from a 5 o'clock. if i worked for someone else i would probably have to work harder but with less stress out of work time, more security and more holiday. it doesn't suit everyone, you pays your money and takes your choice... |
So if someone has the ability to work 60 hours a week in factory doing a hard, demanding job but does not have the ability to get a degree and 'well paid' job should he or she receive less monetary reward?
Personally I think not, but that's the way it works.
_________________
"Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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simonbrydon
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:15 am Post subject: |
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| On the is Cycling Middle or Lower Class sport vote can we have a button for "Who cares." |
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KJ
T de F Winner
Joined: 18 May 2005
Posts: 26400
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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People are people  |
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Canonised
E, Bronze
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 474
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:20 am Post subject: |
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| Dave Griffiths wrote: |
| Many times, I’ve talked things over with anxious parents, who worried that their son was losing out on education due to training and racing. To do any good at cycling (and probably any sport) requires considerable: personal discipline, organisation, personal care, reasonable eating etc etc and, over time, this has an overall very beneficial effect on most. |
And cycling also teaches you that if you want to be a winner, your best bet is to work as little as possible, bluff that you're not as much of a threat as you are, make everyone else work for you, then screw everyone over and claim the glory for yourself in the end — very useful skills in any "professional" career, and certainly qualities they don't teach you at school. |
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Boy wrote: |
| martin smith wrote: |
| Tom Butcher wrote: |
Probably the hardest working person I know is in the worst job, low paid, poor conditions, no autonomy - maybe because he lacks some self confidence and drive to get out of his situation - but he does a full week plus Saturday mornings and gives part of his wage direct to charity every month - it's people like him that capitalism fail. |
capitalism hasn't failed him at all. the opportunities exist, if someone doesn't take them who else is to blame? there in no-one in this country who, providing they have the ability, cannot get a degree and a well paid job if they want to. the simple fact is that it isn't the path of least resistance so many don't bother. there's no point blaming 'the system', the system is the same for everyone.
and some others like low stress jobs they can walk away from a 5 o'clock. if i worked for someone else i would probably have to work harder but with less stress out of work time, more security and more holiday. it doesn't suit everyone, you pays your money and takes your choice... |
So if someone has the ability to work 60 hours a week in factory doing a hard, demanding job but does not have the ability to get a degree and 'well paid' job should he or she receive less monetary reward?
Personally I think not, but that's the way it works. |
it's what society values and what people are prepared to pay for. put simply, anyone can do a physically demanding job, not everyone can do a mentally demanding job. therefore, mentally demanding jobs have a higher value placed upon them. unfair? possibly but then who said life was fair?
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Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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Festina_Lente
E, Bronze
Joined: 14 May 2007
Posts: 317
Location: Algarve
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:29 am Post subject: |
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The Olympic movement and sport in its modern guise was born of the extremelly wealthy, "upper" classes.
The whole amateur movement in sport came about as a means of excluding the "lower" classes.: those with money and time can afford to train and dedicate time to their sport; those who can't don't.
And hence you are left with a bunch of alturistic narcisists, in a "lets pat each other on the back" club.
Road racing evolved outside of this. And is a sport of mass appeal. On the continent any young person with a will to succed and talent can find people to support them.
Britain on the other hand has managed to make it exclusive by the fact you do need a fortune to indulge in it. And without clubs picking up the bill it is very difficult. Again, given the history of cycling in Britain we can blame the "upper" classes for this with the banning of mass start events whenever that was.
I despise the British "class" system. And believe in the merits of the individual.
Cyclists belong to class x. |
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| martin smith wrote: |
| Billy Boy wrote: |
| martin smith wrote: |
| Tom Butcher wrote: |
Probably the hardest working person I know is in the worst job, low paid, poor conditions, no autonomy - maybe because he lacks some self confidence and drive to get out of his situation - but he does a full week plus Saturday mornings and gives part of his wage direct to charity every month - it's people like him that capitalism fail. |
capitalism hasn't failed him at all. the opportunities exist, if someone doesn't take them who else is to blame? there in no-one in this country who, providing they have the ability, cannot get a degree and a well paid job if they want to. the simple fact is that it isn't the path of least resistance so many don't bother. there's no point blaming 'the system', the system is the same for everyone.
and some others like low stress jobs they can walk away from a 5 o'clock. if i worked for someone else i would probably have to work harder but with less stress out of work time, more security and more holiday. it doesn't suit everyone, you pays your money and takes your choice... |
So if someone has the ability to work 60 hours a week in factory doing a hard, demanding job but does not have the ability to get a degree and 'well paid' job should he or she receive less monetary reward?
Personally I think not, but that's the way it works. |
it's what society values and what people are prepared to pay for. put simply, anyone can do a physically demanding job, not everyone can do a mentally demanding job. therefore, mentally demanding jobs have a higher value placed upon them. unfair? possibly but then who said life was fair? |
I disagree with that statement.
However, I totally agree that fairness has little to do with it, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people doing 'decent' jobs out there to the best of their ability. The fact that those jobs are manual and generally less well paid doesn't mean they aren't doing their best, which is what really matters.
_________________
"Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| Canonised wrote: |
| And cycling also teaches you that if you want to be a winner, your best bet is to work as little as possible, bluff that you're not as much of a threat as you are, make everyone else work for you, then screw everyone over and claim the glory for yourself in the end — very useful skills in any "professional" career, and certainly qualities they don't teach you at school. |
In order to be a winner, you have to be good at cycling whether or not you use those techniques. If you do use them, your fellow cyclists will know this and will take every opportunity to get back at you.
But work isn't cycling; in cycling the objective is to finish first. In work the objective isn't to climb to the top of the heap in competition, but in cooperation to produce something. Those people who are good at their work and who understand this will try hard to get rid of the climbers and empire builders.
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: |
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| Billy Boy wrote: |
However, I totally agree that fairness has little to do with it, I'm just pointing out that there are a lot of people doing 'decent' jobs out there to the best of their ability. The fact that those jobs are manual and generally less well paid doesn't mean they aren't doing their best, which is what really matters. |
i agree.
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Paul H.
E, Bronze
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 314
Location: not numb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Plumbers. Working class or middle class? |
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Rob of the Og
E, Gold
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Is cycling now a 'middle-class sport'? |
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| Fritz wrote: |
Following on from that 'Vicki' article it seems that now cycling is classed as a 'middle-class sport' along with sailing & rowing.
Do you consider cycling now as a 'middle-class sport'? |
It has changed a lot quite quickly I think. When I was first riding with our club (about 15 years ago) the majority of people in the group were builders, labourers or other semi-skilled/unskilled workers. These days I see solicitors, business managers and plenty of other professional people. |
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martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul H. wrote: |
| Plumbers. Working class or middle class? |
upper class these days isn't it? 
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