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Is cycling now a 'middle-class sport'? |
Yes |
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No |
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42% |
[ 30 ] |
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Total Votes : 71 |
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De Rosa World Champ
Joined: 04 Dec 2002 Posts: 10485
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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There is nothing wrong with 4th cats having nice bikes. The so-called first cats in Uk who sneer at them would only be 4th cat equivalents in Belgium or Italy so if they went over there they would have to sell their bikes and downgrade ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
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kingy E, Silver
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 Posts: 839 Location: AVITshire
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject: |
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remember the old saying
class is consistent
form is temporary
so does that mean that your class remains consistent regardless of how many £££'s you earn or indeed have in your pocket, bank, string bag etc. Therefore class is set when you pop out to greet the midwife?
No I didn't think so either, but some get to start higher up the ladder...further o fall??? |
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Tom Butcher E, Silver
Joined: 20 Aug 2003 Posts: 1575 Location: Derby
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="mattr"]Keeping up with the Joneses is what is putting people with smaller disposable incomes off, if you don't have a carbon/Ultegra road bike, you can't ride with us attitude...... and so on.
quote]
I've never come across that attitude - if I'm honest I don't believe you have either. |
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Billy Boy T de F Winner
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Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 30726 Location: Not Aylesbury
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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50:50 _________________ "Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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kb7 E, Bronze
Joined: 01 Apr 2006 Posts: 394 Location: Hullgaria and Lagos
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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How do we define middle class? I was brought in a very rough area and consider myself to be working class, but my income would put me in a higher socio-economic group.
I have a couple of very expensive bikes, but that's my hobby in the same way others spend their spare cash in other ways: sports cars, motorbikes et al. So, what or why does it matter whether someone has a 5 grand bike and is a 4th cat or a sportive rider or just a leisure rider? Also, when I was in a club, kids who had cheaper, heavier bikes were not looked down upon by the others. This egalitarianism was something I found refreshing. Of course everyone wanted a custom 531 with Campag gear and Universal brakes. My first decent bike cost me 50 quid when I was earning 5 quid a week back in 1969.
Ultimately it's people's genes that decides how good they are.
Cycling as a pastime is basically classless in the UK because morons such as white van man or someone in a big status car are quite willing to run you off the road with impunity! |
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Billy Boy T de F Winner
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Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 30726 Location: Not Aylesbury
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Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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kb7 wrote: |
How do we define middle class? I was brought in a very rough area and consider myself to be working class, but my income would put me in a higher socio-economic group.
I have a couple of very expensive bikes, but that's my hobby in the same way others spend their spare cash in other ways: sports cars, motorbikes et al. So, what or why does it matter whether someone has a 5 grand bike and is a 4th cat or a sportive rider or just a leisure rider? Also, when I was in a club, kids who had cheaper, heavier bikes were not looked down upon by the others. This egalitarianism was something I found refreshing. Of course everyone wanted a custom 531 with Campag gear and Universal brakes. My first decent bike cost me 50 quid when I was earning 5 quid a week back in 1969.
Ultimately it's people's genes that decides how good they are.
Cycling as a pastime is basically classless in the UK because morons such as white van man or someone in a big status car are quite willing to run you off the road with impunity! |
I got my first road bike from the tip, and my local club didn't mind that I was crap and kept getting dropped. I agree, cycling is classless. ![Cool](images/smiles/icon_cool.gif) _________________ "Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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AndyRC Cat 3 Groupie
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008 Posts: 20
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:01 am Post subject: |
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this thread is absolutely unbelievable!
if you're good, you're good.
if you're crap, you're crap.
class has f*ck all to do with it ![Shocked](images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) |
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Wheezer! E, Bronze
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Joined: 29 Dec 2002 Posts: 482 Location: Nottingham
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:26 am Post subject: |
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I'm sure money has nothing to do with it. Not at my level anyway. Every sport has it. I'm sure there are plenty of 20+ something handicappers with Ping golf clubs.
We had 'liquid' thrown at us last night from 'white van man'. perhaps he could tell we were all paupers! _________________ I RIDE, THEREFORE I AM!! |
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1000 Cat 1 Groupie
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Joined: 01 Apr 2007 Posts: 183
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: |
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AndyRC wrote: |
this thread is absolutely unbelievable!
if you're good, you're good.
if you're crap, you're crap.
class has f*ck all to do with it ![Shocked](images/smiles/icon_eek.gif) |
I dont think thats the issue my friend. I think the thread is about those who gravitate towards cyclesport rather than their performance once they are there.
Im sure there are a million and one potential world beating yachtsmen hiding in the factories, pits and fields of the UK, even the doll office and these factors mean thast socially and financially they are not likely to be 'exposed' to a sport that would be seen as middle class.
There is also the issue of future generations learning from their parents and sailing isnt something i can imagine the working class/lower classes are experiencing at an early age in the form of sports.
Im not sure there is much of an argument regards class in cycling compared to it just being a little to fcu king hard compare to the X box or playstation, hence the possible lack of competition |
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mattr World Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 12647
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:03 am Post subject: |
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Tom Butcher wrote: |
mattr wrote: |
Keeping up with the Joneses is what is putting people with smaller disposable incomes off, if you don't have a carbon/Ultegra road bike, you can't ride with us attitude...... and so on.
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I've never come across that attitude - if I'm honest I don't believe you have either. |
No i haven't, i was talking about peoples perception of cycling,
Look at lees last post, 'a decent bike costs a grand', complete .
But that attitude would put someone taking £150 a week home off wouldn't it. |
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Plurien E, Silver
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Joined: 09 Dec 2003 Posts: 1966
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:18 am Post subject: |
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Considerations in this minefield?
The structure, 'gentlemanliness' and internationalism of our sport.
The cost:effectiveness ratio of equipment needed to do the sport.
The non-mainstream nature of even top-level cycle sports media coverage.
The grassroots liberal mix of social types, ages, incomes and occupations.
You have to seek out club activity once you've decided that you're interested to do it
Corporate cyclosportive participation (?)
Riding is a solo and a team/club activity, so each rider comes to it for the time of a race or club run, which is very different from team sports where you spend a lot of time *CENSORED* in each others' company, even though a game lasts 90 mins or less.
Those coming into the sport either have independent means or supportive families - Either of these can be construed as making you 'middle class', even if it's only in outlook because someone is choosing to spend disposable income on a structured leisure pursuit.
The values that make you a rider, whatever they are, seem to get passed on through families, which indicates a set of values outside the day-to-day (I'm not sure how best to define this and the same could be said of other sports, but in that case it's usually to do with supporting and not playing - 'XXFC supporter for life')
There needs to be a high degree of trust between riders, even though they are adversaries.
Most people I meet do actually want the sport to have a higher set of social values and enjoy the fact this sets the sport apart from others. - "We don't do touchline abuse".
_________
No doubt there are other considerations which could equally prove otherwise - it's a free country and a great sport - but simply the fact that the sport encourages a social mix: Does that make it not a working-class sport as a simple issue of definition (if the sport welcomes anyone who isn't working-class, then it can't be working-class....).
Certainly middle-class people revel in the sport as something in which they can take an even part, whereas for different reasons they might feel a bit excluded from, say the golf or tennis club or from the local FC.
Each to their own - and perhaps it's this liberalism, family-friendliness, voluntary organisation and acceptance of others (call it 'inclusion' if you want) - up to the point where they show they don't accept our values and codes which also contributes to the sport's middle-class image.
Riders are rather conservative and resistant to change, but that often only has to do with their knowledge of a complex set of conditions required for the sport to thrive. These are widely misunderstood by authority and the public - especially when it comes to using the road. Perhaps how we best explain our needs is a bigger issue of concern when it comes to making our sport able to be more inclusive (always supposing you're bothered about inclusion...!)
We probably wouldn't have it any other way - eh?!
And last - Engaging in this kind of debate about the sport means we're self-selecting as middle-class by some definitions. |
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Joursans Div 2 Pro
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Joined: 18 Jul 2006 Posts: 4840 Location: The Whole Year Inn
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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You can buy a decent road bike good enough to race in for say £800 - maybe less if you know where to look. This is cheaper than a season ticket for many London premiership clubs and it will last more than one season. Turning up to bike races is no more expensive than following your club round the country if you like that sort of thing.
Beats me why any of this should put the sport beyond any social class other than the perennially skint or lazy, there are upper class skint people out there. _________________ I tell myself I will not go,
even as I drive there. |
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Rich Hill Tour Winner
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Joined: 15 Aug 2002 Posts: 15188 Location: Coventry
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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I started riding relatively late - was cack for a few years then got good. People noticed once I got good. Regardless of the bike. _________________ Imagination is the war against reality.... |
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DNAse E, Gold
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Joined: 24 Feb 2006 Posts: 2414 Location: Oxfordshire
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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A club near me has a couple of road bikes that it can loan out to new members so they can try out cycling before commiting to splashing out on a load of kit. _________________ "Train?! Training is for people with no natural ability!" |
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Billy Boy T de F Winner
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Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 30726 Location: Not Aylesbury
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Joursans wrote: |
You can buy a decent road bike good enough to race in for say £800 - maybe less if you know where to look. This is cheaper than a season ticket for many London premiership clubs and it will last more than one season. Turning up to bike races is no more expensive than following your club round the country if you like that sort of thing.
Beats me why any of this should put the sport beyond any social class other than the perennially skint or lazy, there are upper class skint people out there. |
I'd suggest a lot less! There is no reason why a £400 bike isn't good enough. _________________ "Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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mattr World Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 12647
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:14 pm Post subject: |
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Rich Hill wrote: |
I started riding relatively late - was cack for a few years then got good. People noticed once I got good. Regardless of the bike. |
Thats open to debate.
Billy Boy wrote: |
I'd suggest a lot less! There is no reason why a £400 bike isn't good enough. |
I reckon from Lee's estimation of £1000, that there London place has started to twist his mind.
Won't be long before he's dressing like some sort of spiv and talking about buying a Chelsea Tractor to get from the pavement outside his (million quid) squat, to the back of the nearest traffic jam.
Instead of waddling.
(ref. pictures from the track posted up a couple or three weeks ago showing Lee in *coff* fine form)
![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) |
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John McC Moderator
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 24510 Location: Leafy Barnet
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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mattr wrote: |
Thats open to debate. |
Saucer of milk, again ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ John McClelland's victory in the motor paced event with Derek Marloe on the derny was a thing of beauty (Oldmanof) |
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mattr World Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004 Posts: 12647
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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John McC wrote: |
mattr wrote: |
Thats open to debate. |
Saucer of milk, again ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
He can take it, he's a big boy now (as in 'grown up')
I have altogether more honesty about it, i started cråp and then continued in the same vein, just got better at being cråp......... |
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Roy Gardiner T de F Winner
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003 Posts: 21249 Location: London and Essex
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Rich Hill wrote: |
I started riding relatively late - was cack for a few years then got good. People noticed once I got good. Regardless of the bike. |
I think that's it; no-one cares if you're black or white, male or female, Cambridge and Brigade of Guards or Tossbridge Secondary Modern and the dole queue, whatever. If you can ride a bike, OK; and if you ride a gas pipe junker and still do it, even more respect. _________________ "For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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Scalatore E, Gold
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Joined: 08 Feb 2007 Posts: 2484
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Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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Roy Gardiner wrote: |
Rich Hill wrote: |
I started riding relatively late - was cack for a few years then got good. People noticed once I got good. Regardless of the bike. |
I think that's it; no-one cares if you're black or white, male or female, Cambridge and Brigade of Guards or Tossbridge Secondary Modern and the dole queue, whatever. If you can ride a bike, OK; and if you ride a gas pipe junker and still do it, even more respect. |
Definately. It's on the bike where it counts not where you're from. Riding is a great ice-breaker and leveller. |
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