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| Does Contadors DNS in the Tour de France devalue the race and eventual winner? |
| Yes, of course ASO should invite the best |
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| No the winner will get the kudos winning to Tour whoever he beats |
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| Total Votes : 49 |
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mho
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 9577
Location: going round the banking
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 Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:10 pm Post subject: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Contador proves he is the best GT rider, does his non participation in the Tour de France devalue the race and eventual winner? |
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Tucker
Tour Winner
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 15722
Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Yeah, I think so. If they are to disqualify whole teams based on suspicions then I don't think any pro teams can start. |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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Location: Up North
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: |
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The Tour is a circus, Contador not being there won't deter a single spectator from turning up. There will always be a question over who would have won if he had started though.
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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The race makes the rider, not the other way around. Always has. Look at Raymond Poulidor, never once race leader, but famous just the same.
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Rob of the Og
E, Gold
Joined: 12 Jan 2005
Posts: 2256
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| mho wrote: |
| Contador proves he is the best GT rider, does his non participation in the Tour de France devalue the race and eventual winner? |
But if Basso or Ullrich had also been given a free pass from Puerto then they'd be kicking him. If Valverde was still on his pre-Puerto programme then he'd be thrashing AC as well. And Evans may well have beaten him at the Tour last year without the attacking influence of Rassmussen. And Rass definitely would have beaten him if he hadn't been thrown out.
So Contador is the 'best GT rider' based on a completely arbitrary system where he gets away with links to dopage but others don't. And he wasn't exactly dominant at the Giro, at times seeming to rely on some of the smaller teams helping him out.
This year's Tour will be better off without Astana. You can say that you should kick the other teams out, but no other team has the sustained record of foul play that Astana/Liberty/Wuerth has. The real devalued Tours are all the years between 1996 and 2007 when virtually the entire top-10 of each year has been since discredited. |
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Tucker
Tour Winner
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 15722
Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Rob of the Og wrote: |
| mho wrote: |
| Contador proves he is the best GT rider, does his non participation in the Tour de France devalue the race and eventual winner? |
But if Basso or Ullrich had also been given a free pass from Puerto then they'd be kicking him. If Valverde was still on his pre-Puerto programme then he'd be thrashing AC as well. And Evans may well have beaten him at the Tour last year without the attacking influence of Rassmussen. And Rass definitely would have beaten him if he hadn't been thrown out.
So Contador is the 'best GT rider' based on a completely arbitrary system where he gets away with links to dopage but others don't. And he wasn't exactly dominant at the Giro, at times seeming to rely on some of the smaller teams helping him out.
This year's Tour will be better off without Astana. You can say that you should kick the other teams out, but no other team has the sustained record of foul play that Astana/Liberty/Wuerth has. The real devalued Tours are all the years between 1996 and 2007 when virtually the entire top-10 of each year has been since discredited. |
All subjective, because Contador is young and improving. How many riders would have beaten Lance at the age of 25, compared to how many would have beaten him at 30?
My cynical POV is that they are all at it, so why disqualify just one team? |
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Turismo
E, Silver
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 1511
Location: Ealing
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Tucker wrote: |
All subjective, because Contador is young and improving. How many riders would have beaten Lance at the age of 25, compared to how many would have beaten him at 30?
My cynical POV is that they are all at it, so why disqualify just one team? |
Countering a subjective point with another subjective point? That's always going to be a sound analysis...
And ASO haven't disqualified Astana, they simply haven't invited them. Whether the Tour should feature the best riders in the world is a different matter, of course, but the fact that I've already been treated to this year's edition of a Bruyneel team boring its way to a GT victory means I won't be missing them too much at the Tour. From a fan's point of view, there's at least the prospect of an exciting, aggressive race in store, rather than a defensive minded team riding a Tour-by-numbers while idiot Americans fawn over them. |
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Rob of the Og
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Joined: 12 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Tucker wrote: |
| All subjective, because Contador is young and improving. How many riders would have beaten Lance at the age of 25, compared to how many would have beaten him at 30? |
Whether he's the best in 5 years time is irrelevant. He's a great rider now, but looking artificially good because others were punished for something that he got away with. It's indisputable that Rass would have beaten him last summer. It's indisputable that Basso demolished a similar field in the Giro in 2006.
| Tucker wrote: |
| My cynical POV is that they are all at it, so why disqualify just one team? |
Why would I, or why would ASO? Unfortunately, to ASO, this is all part of the power games they're playing with the UCI. Look on the internet and you'll find plenty of stories about the ways that previous Bruyneel teams cosied up to the UCI to make sure that their riders didn't test positive. It would be logical if ASO now wanted to use Astana as a proxy in the fight with the UCI. Of course it also helps them at least appear to be more serious about fighting dopage than the UCI.
I would leave them out because as a team they've consistantly taken the piss out of the sport for years now as Astana/Wuerth/Liberty-S. |
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Des
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Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Rob of the Og wrote: |
[
I would leave them out because as a team they've consistantly taken the piss out of the sport for years now as Astana/Wuerth/Liberty-S. |
But this is a different team, just the same sponsors. No you can allege as much as you like (subject to libel laws etc) about USP/ Disco/ 2008 Astana, but the fact remains that they do not have a record of failing dope tests, just a record of being winners in the GT's. Yet teams that have had a poor dopage record, but now claim to have cleaned up their act are still allowed to start. 
Now ho is hypocrisy spelt again? 
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Tucker
Tour Winner
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Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Turismo wrote: |
| Tucker wrote: |
All subjective, because Contador is young and improving. How many riders would have beaten Lance at the age of 25, compared to how many would have beaten him at 30?
My cynical POV is that they are all at it, so why disqualify just one team? |
Countering a subjective point with another subjective point? That's always going to be a sound analysis...
And ASO haven't disqualified Astana, they simply haven't invited them. Whether the Tour should feature the best riders in the world is a different matter, of course, but the fact that I've already been treated to this year's edition of a Bruyneel team boring its way to a GT victory means I won't be missing them too much at the Tour. From a fan's point of view, there's at least the prospect of an exciting, aggressive race in store, rather than a defensive minded team riding a Tour-by-numbers while idiot Americans fawn over them. |
Agree with all of this, but Contador is a rider who is certainly amongst the best GT racers in the world and would certainly be a contender for yellow - so whoever wins it in his absence wins IMHO a devalued Tour - that was the question I was answering.
As for Astana being a "dirty team", I agree their record is hardly great, but as long as they can field a team of riders who arent currently serving a ban, then I don't see how they are different from any other team. |
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Turismo
E, Silver
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 1511
Location: Ealing
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| Tucker wrote: |
| Agree with all of this, but Contador is a rider who is certainly amongst the best GT racers in the world and would certainly be a contender for yellow - so whoever wins it in his absence wins IMHO a devalued Tour - that was the question I was answering. |
That's certainly true.
It's all a bit of a minefield, since we're basing our judgement on perceived potential overall. We can't really argue that two of Lance Armstrong's Tour victories don't count because Jan Ullrich wasn't there, or indeed that Lance Armstrong's record is worthless because he didn't have to race against Merckx. It's not really the same thing, but losing a contender, even the previous year's winner, is often just part of the sport -- especially with the political and doping issues surrounding it at the time.
Personally, the Tour won't lose any value to me without Astana there. I'll watch it, enjoy it, possibly even write annoyed messages on here about whichever doper wins it. But I can definitely understand the other side of the argument. |
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canon dale
E, Gold
Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: Lufbra
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:38 pm Post subject: |
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Just for a different angle or two, as in all sport, Contador can only beat those that turn up on the day (invite or no invite). Also, I've been waiting for someone to say, "ahh, but he wins with no panache", the same way that LA was criticised for winning the GC without winning a stage.
Just think the kid can't win as you'll always have suspicion of some cheating in all pro-sports. If it isn't dopage it'll be diving a la footie, or stealing other team's designs as in GP racing, etc.
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Tucker
Tour Winner
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 15722
Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| canon dale wrote: |
| Just think the kid can't win as you'll always have suspicion of some cheating in all pro-sports. If it isn't dopage it'll be diving a la footie, or stealing other team's designs as in GP racing, etc. |
Not just pro sports - in all aspects of life. Human nature IMHO, which is why I've stopped worrying about it. |
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canon dale
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005
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Location: Lufbra
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Tucker wrote: |
| canon dale wrote: |
| Just think the kid can't win as you'll always have suspicion of some cheating in all pro-sports. If it isn't dopage it'll be diving a la footie, or stealing other team's designs as in GP racing, etc. |
Not just pro sports - in all aspects of life. Human nature IMHO, which is why I've stopped worrying about it. |
Very good point Tucker, I'll loose less sleep all round with that thought - there's always someone with an angle
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snakeeater
E, Silver
Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobody has mentioned the added equation that AC won the tdf when the previous winner was absent. I dont want to bring up the whole landis innocent/guilty argument thing up, but if they're all doing it then it makes contadors win even more devalued. |
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van eijden
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Joined: 02 Mar 2005
Posts: 963
Location: going downhill fast
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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Maybe the point should be made that the TdF isn't everything.... most Italians or Spanish are more interested in the Giro / Vuelta. Winning any of the 3 major tours is a big deal and in many ways it wasn't until Lemond won the TdF that 'the media' egged on by the US media started to big up the Tour de France as the trace to win. For my money this years Giro was great especially Fridays stage 19.
Personally I think Astana should be riding the TdF.
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mho
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 28 Jul 2003
Posts: 9577
Location: going round the banking
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| snakeeater wrote: |
| Nobody has mentioned the added equation that AC won the tdf when the previous winner was absent. I dont want to bring up the whole landis innocent/guilty argument thing up, but if they're all doing it then it makes contadors win even more devalued. |
The previous winner was Oscar PEREIRO and he was present. |
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Birillo
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Joined: 23 Jul 2006
Posts: 128
Location: Nottingham
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
For my money this years Giro was great especially Fridays stage 19.
Personally I think Astana should be riding the TdF. |
I agree. The Giro has been a better race than the Tour for several years now. It won't stop the Tour getting all the publicity though. |
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Dogma Dave
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 6714
Location: God's Own County
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| Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Impact of the Giro on the Tour |
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| mho wrote: |
| Contador proves he is the best GT rider, does his non participation in the Tour de France devalue the race and eventual winner? |
Do p er |
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MH
E, Bronze
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 479
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| Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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The Giro was excellent entertainment taken at face value, I enjoyed the couple of stages I saw. But it was also slightly depressing (or 'embarrassing' I think the Gazetta called it) - Ricco, Di Luca, Contador, the entire CSF team....just so blatant. At least High Road did well I guess....
But no Contador's abscence does not devalue the Tour - probably the opposite if anything
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