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Do you think that composite teams (made up from riders that are first claim members of different cycling clubs) should be allowed to race in the Team Pursuit / Team Sprint events in the National Championships? |
Yes |
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16% |
[ 13 ] |
No |
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71% |
[ 55 ] |
Not really fussed! |
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11% |
[ 9 ] |
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Total Votes : 77 |
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elaina Moderator
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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Billynobrakes wrote: |
Some interesting reading from BC Handbook Bye - Laws:
Quote: |
4.11 Technical Regulations - Changes
4.11.1 The Board will establish a Technical Commission which will recommend changes to Technical Regulations. All changes will be subject to approval by the Board and will be notified to Regions, Affiliated Organisations and all listed Commissaires within 14 days of the change being approved. No changes will be effective until this formal stage of notification has been completed, and no change may be applied retrospectively. Regional Councils and all Affiliated Organisations may suggest changes to the Technical Group at any time throughout the year.
4.11.2 Any Club, Region or Nationally Affiliated Organisation whose proposal under Bye-Law 4.11.1. is not accepted by the Board shall still have the right to place the proposal before the National Council under the provisions of Bye-Law 4.4.1. |
and 4.4.1 is:
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4.4.1 A Regional Council, Organisation with direct representation on National Council, the Board, and any special committee appointed by the National Council shall be entitled to place motions on the Agenda of the National Council. |
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Unfortunately the first two Bye-laws that you have quoted Billynobrakes concern Technical Regulation Changes. Changing the date of the track nationals does not come under Technical.
You are correct in quoting 4.4.1 though ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) |
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Billynobrakes Div 1 Pro
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:55 pm Post subject: |
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elaina wrote: |
Unfortunately the first two Bye-laws that you have quoted Billynobrakes concern Technical Regulation Changes. Changing the date of the track nationals does not come under Technical.
You are correct in quoting 4.4.1 though ![Very Happy](images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif) |
But I'm not taliking about changing the date of the track nationals - I'm talking about a rule change for the TP / TS - which is covered by the first two by laws. _________________ Blame me for robbing Peter but don't you blame Paul |
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Willi Tarran E, Silver
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Joined: 03 Mar 2002 Posts: 1655 Location: Harlow Essex
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Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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I think that composite team should be allowed in the Team Pursuit and Team Sprint because
1 We historically have had composite teams in Madison, Tandem and Motorpace and in two of the three events the rules mention teams without regard to cllub affiliation.
2 Reference to Clubs was removed many years ago from the Team Pursuit.
3 The Team sprint was known as the Olympic Sprint but only changed toteam sprint as the UCI cannot have a WOlrds CHampionship with the title Olympic in it.
4 Allowing composite team or teams made up from a given number of BC members opens the opportunities for racing to more people.
5 If we are going to have a single set of rules for events then the option to move to the madison model rather than the TP model is compelling in that the oldest championships had riders from different clubs.
6 The solution to team composition has been circuvented many timse in the past. Is it honest to join a club for the duration of the Championships?
7 The useage of the word Team in the title is deliberate. A team is a group working towards a common goal, as opposed to Team with an identifiable affiliation and membership
My reasons
GaryK
Thanks for taking note. I will use these results to discuss with colleagues re the Changes to the NTC Regulations.
Willi Tarran |
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monk Div 1 Pro
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Joined: 16 Mar 2005 Posts: 6589
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Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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ben elliott - vc st raphael
NO
its a team pursuit championship, the 'squad' should compete for their own clubs and teams in the nationals... over the years i've gone to a lot of trouble to build a team worthy of racing in these championships.... suddenly it is now feasible for the fastest guys to band together and run a closed shop as far as he medals go... there is now no incentive for the 'clubs' and teams and sponsors to make any effort to put together a 'team'.
I did race this year in a composite team in the TS, in hindsight i wil admit this was mainly because the closing date predated the masters and i had some placating to do to ensure my masters team sprint worked for this year. I will never ever again race in a composite team in the naitonals. They are an abomination and a shame to the championship. if they continue i can see the few sponsors willing to put teams together despairing of the sport. I will continue to try and ensure my club keeps racing but if the composites continue we're racingfor nothing and I don't know how long us or anyone will bother to continue. for me glendene and PCA were the finalists this year. credit to mcdonalds for putting together what could well be the last 'team' to be created.
FWIW the composites are another nail in the coffin of the grass roots riders and BCF members being able to 'compete' in the championships. We're now able to go and get pummelled by the olympians, no longer do they ride within our teams and race with us. No longer can a amateur hope to pull one off and get lucky in the naitojals. tere's no point prem calendar riders turning p cos its out of road season, on a 250 indoor track, and all the national squad can gang up and make sure there's no point anyone else turning up. They can stay in their cliques and while the times are fast there was no 'racing' in sight cos all the best riders gabged up to make sure there was no contest! |
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Des Moderator
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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To push the analogy a little further, why not allow composite Teams in the Olympics and Worlds using Willi's definition of "Team"
Change the rule to allow only registered teams / clubs and restrict movement of riders to a max of clubs per year, minimum time period between competing in national events after moves. _________________ www.kentonrc.co.uk |
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Des Moderator
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 8:16 am Post subject: |
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Sorry for my view to count I'm Des *CENSORED* - Kenton RC _________________ www.kentonrc.co.uk |
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Swainy E, Silver
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Joined: 10 Sep 2005 Posts: 1364 Location: Charnwood Forest
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: |
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I'm crap and haven't ridden the track since the late 80's at Saffron Lane but feel I could win a Gold Medal at next years Team Pursuit. Everyone is aware what sacrifices top riders have to make and the majority are skint. If i pay/gift Rob Hayles, Chris Newton & Paul Manning (all not neccessarily skint ) a couple of grand each maybe they would ride with me in Composite C ?? So if I shave me legs, start, do a lap, Do I get a medal ?? If so this is a great rule .
I voted NO
Andy Swain - Melton Olympic CC ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) _________________ www.metaltek.co.uk
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martin smith World Champ
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Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 12187 Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Swainy wrote: |
I'm crap and haven't ridden the track since the late 80's at Saffron Lane but feel I could win a Gold Medal at next years Team Pursuit. Everyone is aware what sacrifices top riders have to make and the majority are skint. If i pay/gift Rob Hayles, Chris Newton & Paul Manning (all not neccessarily skint ) a couple of grand each maybe they would ride with me in Composite C ?? So if I shave me legs, start, do a lap, Do I get a medal ?? If so this is a great rule .
I voted NO
Andy Swain - Melton Olympic CC ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) |
i'm doing the same with chris and craig in the team sprint. mind you, 4 grand for a bc medal? not sure it's worth it... _________________ Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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George Gilbert Div 3 Pro
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 4159 Location: Somewhere, over the rainbow
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:10 am Post subject: |
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Swainy wrote: |
If i pay/gift Rob Hayles, Chris Newton & Paul Manning (all not neccessarily skint ) a couple of grand each maybe they would ride with me in Composite C ?? So if I shave me legs, start, do a lap, Do I get a medal ?? If so this is a great rule .
I voted NO
Andy Swain - Melton Olympic CC ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) |
Whether or not composites are allowed is completely irrelevant to that argument. Even if composites are banned, then you could equally pay 3 good riders and form a "legitimate" club, enter the NTCs and pick up your medal for doing a lap that way...
The fastest riders are going to enter anyway regardless of the rules about composites and "proper" clubs are going to get beaten - the question seems to be whether or not they get beaten by a made up club that only races once a year or by a composite of two or more "real" clubs. In either case, it'll be the same riders riding the same time...
martin smith wrote: |
i'm doing the same with chris and craig in the team sprint. |
Ahhh, but the difference is that in the TP, you wouldn't have to do a turn on the front to get the medal - just turn up to the start line and be dropped before the first banking.
In the TS, you do have to lead for a lap and therefore have to have a modicum of talent - if you're too slow, then even with the best riders in the world on your team, you won't get your medal ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
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John McC Moderator
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:12 am Post subject: |
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F'FS George, what has happened to your capacity for humour? _________________ John McClelland's victory in the motor paced event with Derek Marloe on the derny was a thing of beauty (Oldmanof)
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racyrich2 E, Gold
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:15 am Post subject: |
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Des wrote: |
To push the analogy a little further, why not allow composite Teams in the Olympics and Worlds using Willi's definition of "Team"
Change the rule to allow only registered teams / clubs and restrict movement of riders to a max of clubs per year, minimum time period between competing in national events after moves. |
Oi! I said that last week on the other thread! _________________ Rich |
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Des Moderator
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: |
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Never read the other thread, rarely come onto the track forum as it always seems to go in circles ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) _________________ www.kentonrc.co.uk |
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George Gilbert Div 3 Pro
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Joined: 20 Jul 2005 Posts: 4159 Location: Somewhere, over the rainbow
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:19 am Post subject: |
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John McC wrote: |
*CENSORED* George, what has happened to your capacity for humour? |
Sleep deprivation - I tried explaining to our kid that it's against the Geneva Convention, but he clearly hasn't understood.
Normal service will hopefully return sooner rather than later
Anyway, I'm just trying to be helpful and aid people get their BC medal. The TP is clearly the way to go; for the TS, as I said, you'd actually have to do some training. Can't be doing with that.
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martin smith World Champ
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Joined: 09 Jun 2003 Posts: 12187 Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
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Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 10:32 am Post subject: |
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George Gilbert wrote: |
Swainy wrote: |
If i pay/gift Rob Hayles, Chris Newton & Paul Manning (all not neccessarily skint ) a couple of grand each maybe they would ride with me in Composite C ?? So if I shave me legs, start, do a lap, Do I get a medal ?? If so this is a great rule .
I voted NO
Andy Swain - Melton Olympic CC ![Confused](images/smiles/icon_confused.gif) |
Whether or not composites are allowed is completely irrelevant to that argument. Even if composites are banned, then you could equally pay 3 good riders and form a "legitimate" club, enter the NTCs and pick up your medal for doing a lap that way...
The fastest riders are going to enter anyway regardless of the rules about composites and "proper" clubs are going to get beaten - the question seems to be whether or not they get beaten by a made up club that only races once a year or by a composite of two or more "real" clubs. In either case, it'll be the same riders riding the same time...
martin smith wrote: |
i'm doing the same with chris and craig in the team sprint. |
Ahhh, but the difference is that in the TP, you wouldn't have to do a turn on the front to get the medal - just turn up to the start line and be dropped before the first banking.
In the TS, you do have to lead for a lap and therefore have to have a modicum of talent - if you're too slow, then even with the best riders in the world on your team, you won't get your medal ![Wink](images/smiles/icon_wink.gif) |
a modicum i can manage. as long as the other two can make a second back on the final 2 laps i'll be ok ![Laughing](images/smiles/icon_lol.gif) _________________ Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
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747 E, Silver
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:31 am Post subject: |
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John Austin, I voted no, but would also like to say a big thank you to Willi for all of his hard work as it benifits all of us. _________________ If it does not kill you it makes you stronger. |
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