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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
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Location: Up North
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 Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:49 am Post subject: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. 
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I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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Tucker
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Joined: 03 May 2006
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Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:55 am Post subject: |
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On the steep bits, you can get your arms involved which takes a bit of pressure off the legs. Otherwise, you have to support your weight when standing up so from a purely conservation of energy perspective it's probably not as efficient - however, using different muscles might help spread the load.
To sum up, I don't know. |
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Billy Boy
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Joined: 11 Aug 2003
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:02 pm Post subject: |
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Just eat more cheese, problem solved,
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"Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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John McC
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Joined: 14 Jul 2003
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Location: Leafy Barnet
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Billy Boy wrote: |
| Just eat more cheese, problem solved, |
Shut it, you're about as well informed as Tucker! Apicture just came to me of the blind leading the partially sighted!
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John McClelland's victory in the motor paced event with Derek Marloe on the derny was a thing of beauty (Oldmanof) |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 9031
Location: Up North
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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I thought it was pies?
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I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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mattr
World Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 12647
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| JONNO wrote: |
| I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. |
Total efficiency goes down, but peak power goes up. A load of other things change too, like muscle utilisation and leverage ratios.
So you can increase the speed at which you climb by using more fuel less efficiently in more muscles. (Thus spreading the load a bit more)
*Warning, Gross oversimplification*
(Just thought i'd get that in before someone starts posting maths n science n *CENSORED*) |
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| John McC wrote: |
| Billy Boy wrote: |
| Just eat more cheese, problem solved, |
Shut it, you're about as well informed as Tucker! Apicture just came to me of the blind leading the partially sighted! |
I'm qualified to comment I'll have you know. Indeed I saw a hill just this morning!
_________________
"Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 9031
Location: Up North
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| mattr wrote: |
| JONNO wrote: |
| I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. |
Total efficiency goes down, but peak power goes up. A load of other things change too, like muscle utilisation and leverage ratios.
So you can increase the speed at which you climb by using more fuel less efficiently in more muscles. (Thus spreading the load a bit more)
*Warning, Gross oversimplification*
(Just thought i'd get that in before someone starts posting maths n science n *CENSORED*) |
But say I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it?
_________________
I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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Billy Boy
T de F Winner
Joined: 11 Aug 2003
Posts: 30726
Location: Not Aylesbury
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| JONNO wrote: |
| mattr wrote: |
| JONNO wrote: |
| I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. |
Total efficiency goes down, but peak power goes up. A load of other things change too, like muscle utilisation and leverage ratios.
So you can increase the speed at which you climb by using more fuel less efficiently in more muscles. (Thus spreading the load a bit more)
*Warning, Gross oversimplification*
(Just thought i'd get that in before someone starts posting maths n science n *CENSORED*) |
But say I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it? |
"I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it?"
_________________
"Well done, you are 100% absolutely without a shadow of a doubt spot-bollock-on correct." - Tucker
"Eating is not for wimps" - coal miner
"most of us don't have your brilliance." - John McC |
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mattr
World Champ
Joined: 16 Apr 2004
Posts: 12647
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| JONNO wrote: |
| mattr wrote: |
| JONNO wrote: |
| I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. |
Total efficiency goes down, but peak power goes up. A load of other things change too, like muscle utilisation and leverage ratios.
So you can increase the speed at which you climb by using more fuel less efficiently in more muscles. (Thus spreading the load a bit more)
*Warning, Gross oversimplification*
(Just thought i'd get that in before someone starts posting maths n science n *CENSORED*) |
But say I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it? |
Less efficient, it's nothing to do with being used to it. You will still have to hold your body weight up and move it around, rather than just sitting there. |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 9031
Location: Up North
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| Billy Boy wrote: |
| JONNO wrote: |
| mattr wrote: |
| JONNO wrote: |
| I read that it's not as economical as dragging yourself up a climb sitting down, in the LVRC magazine a while back. But surely if you are in the same gear going at the same pace you use the same energy either way? Is it not just a case of if you are not used to climbing out of the saddle you are using untrained muscles, a bit like someone who has never done any sprint training being expected to win a devil take the hindmost? I'm interested because I have always felt more comfortable getting up as soon as it starts getting a bit steeper than trying to grind it out. |
Total efficiency goes down, but peak power goes up. A load of other things change too, like muscle utilisation and leverage ratios.
So you can increase the speed at which you climb by using more fuel less efficiently in more muscles. (Thus spreading the load a bit more)
*Warning, Gross oversimplification*
(Just thought i'd get that in before someone starts posting maths n science n *CENSORED*) |
But say I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it? |
"I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it?" |
Well done, you have finally put a sentence together. 
_________________
I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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Tucker
Tour Winner
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 15722
Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Climbing out of the saddle.. |
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| JONNO wrote: |
| But say I'm just climbing in the bunch and feel like standing up? Not going any faster, just using different muscle groups, is this less efficient if you are used to doing it? |
Depends how you define "efficient". You'll probably use more oxygen & burn more fuel, but your legs will probably feel less tired which is the important thing. |
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Stotti
E, Bronze
Joined: 29 Aug 2008
Posts: 427
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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i find that, unless its very steep, i go the same speed sat down as i do standing up - but i guess it just feels faster. Tested this out doing some hill repeats
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Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.
I was ridin bikes when Moses wore short pants |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 9031
Location: Up North
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Stotti wrote: |
| i find that, unless its very steep, i go the same speed sat down as i do standing up - but i guess it just feels faster. Tested this out doing some hill repeats |
Came to the same conclusion but still stand up for a bit of variety. Hill repeats though... f s.
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I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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Fluffy
E, Silver
Joined: 03 Jul 2007
Posts: 1510
Location: Ourgate
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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Drop your body weight down on to each peddle stroke when climbing out of the saddle. Thought that was obvious Jonno, even for ex pros *CENSORED* 
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''Racing is life, anything before or after is just waiting''..... Steve McQueen. |
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cjdjustride
Elite Poster
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Bristol
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:20 pm Post subject: Stand or Sit |
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A recent study concluded that the optimum transition point from seated to standing on a climb is at 94% of your power output at maximal oxygen uptake. This was a lab study and it has been suggested that when wind and road surface are taken into consideration the figure could indeed be even higher. Now not many of us have the luxury of a max power at max oxygen uptake figure to work with but what we can take from this study is that if you are looking for efficiency you should stay seated for longer than we probably think.
Of course, all this theory is great but unless you train those ' seated climbing' muscles you'll never be as good as you could be!! |
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Dogma Dave
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 08 Feb 2007
Posts: 6714
Location: God's Own County
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| Posted: Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Theory is great. In theory, if you are 6 foot tall, you should have 172.5mm cranks. In theory, perfect frame size should work out at 0.65 times inside leg measurement. In theory, Spaniards should be able to win bike races without doing the sherry. Except that theory does not always translate as fact, and everyone has a riding style that works for them. End of. |
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JONNO
Div 1 Pro
Joined: 24 Jul 2006
Posts: 9031
Location: Up North
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:07 am Post subject: |
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| Dogma Dave wrote: |
| Theory is great. In theory, if you are 6 foot tall, you should have 172.5mm cranks. In theory, perfect frame size should work out at 0.65 times inside leg measurement. In theory, Spaniards should be able to win bike races without doing the sherry. Except that theory does not always translate as fact, and everyone has a riding style that works for them. End of. |
Correct, I reckon everyone would love to cruise up mountains in the saddle, with their mouths shut like Ivan Basso but just can't afford the sauce. In the end it gets so bloody steep we just have to stand up. Problem being for me that once I have done that I am totally committed and if you JUST HAVE to sit down again you have then lost all rhythm and pace. Guess I will have to do some training and see if that works, 
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I was being chased by a police dog last week, and made the mistake of trying to escape through a little tunnel, over a see-saw and through a hoop of fire. It finally caught me as I was weaving in and out of some sticks. |
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Tucker
Tour Winner
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 15722
Location: Swindon
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| Posted: Sat Jun 20, 2009 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| I can climb alpine cols seated with my mouth shut - just not on a 39x17. 30x25 is more like it. |
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MattB94
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 12 Aug 2009
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:37 pm Post subject: Climbing out of the saddle |
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Your efficiency goes down by 20%  |
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