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| Which Training Zone System do you use ? |
| 4 Zone System |
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40% |
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| Other |
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32% |
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| Total Votes : 37 |
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| Author |
Message |
Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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 Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| Crescenzo wrote: |
| anyways, in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do. |
Don't you think that's a bit sweeping?
- I wonder if an Olympic class track sprinter could finish such a race?
- Will a 1st Cat then do just as well on club runs as in an E/1/2 race?
- I can do what I like and still decrease my 10 time from 26 to 23 minutes? Or is it that because I couldn't get out of the neutralised zone in an Elite race, it simply doesn't matter what I do?
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Crescenzo
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Cheltenham
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:45 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Roy Gardiner]
- I wonder if an Olympic class track sprinter could finish such a race?
- Will a 1st Cat then do just as well on club runs as in an E/1/2 race?
- I can do what I like and still decrease my 10 time from 26 to 23 minutes? Or is it that because I couldn't get out of the neutralised zone in an Elite race, it simply doesn't matter what I do?[/quote]
1) Yeah, as long as it isn't 95 miles (see Tour of Cotswolds thread)
2) Club runs aren't races?
3) Thats what I did when I was a junior. Yeah, if genetics are against you you might as well take *CENSORED*.
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joxster
World Champ
Joined: 05 May 2004
Posts: 11229
Location: Barfly, buy me a drink and I'll tell you a story
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
- I wonder if an Olympic class track sprinter could finish such a race?
- Will a 1st Cat then do just as well on club runs as in an E/1/2 race?
- I can do what I like and still decrease my 10 time from 26 to 23 minutes? Or is it that because I couldn't get out of the neutralised zone in an Elite race, it simply doesn't matter what I do? |
| Crescenzo wrote: |
1) Yeah, as long as it isn't 95 miles (see Tour of Cotswolds thread)
2) Club runs aren't races?
3) Thats what I did when I was a junior. Yeah, if genetics are against you you might as well take *CENSORED*. |
1)I finished the Girvan
2) We only raced to the cafe
3) Can people go that slow in a 10  without falling off 
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When offered the choice between the path of Desire and the path of Virtue I chose the path marked Diversion.
Programming is like 5ex, one mistake and you have to support it for life. |
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| Crescenzo wrote: |
"tester zone" - just under or over your AT.
it's not endurance training and it's not stressing your body enough to improve significantly. |
How has that been established?
| Quote: |
| in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do. |
I'll try again. Why doesn't it matter what training you do if you can't finish an Elite race?
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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Crescenzo
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 23 Jun 2004
Posts: 57
Location: Cheltenham
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:00 am Post subject: |
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| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| Crescenzo wrote: |
"tester zone" - just under or over your AT.
it's not endurance training and it's not stressing your body enough to improve significantly. |
How has that been established?
| Quote: |
| in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do. |
I'll try again. Why doesn't it matter what training you do if you can't finish an Elite race? |
i'm not qualified on this - just going on what i've read/been told/etc.
didn't peter keen revise his 4 zone model to 6 after looking at how pros on the continent trained (when boardman was with Gan)? - and found they didn't train in Z3/4 and those zones weren't benefitial in any significant way?
with finishing elite races i'm assuming someones been trying for 3 or 4 years... i expect it wouldnt matter during those years what training they did - if they still can't finish an elite race then its time to accept it just ain't going to be.
i know 4th cats who have structured training programs and still havent got any points!!!! whats that all about?!
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Roy Gardiner
T de F Winner
Joined: 14 Jul 2003
Posts: 21249
Location: London and Essex
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| joxster wrote: |
| 3) Can people go that slow in a 10 without falling off |
No. I have ended a season by falling off at the first corner of the first race of the year - a 10 - and knocking myself out 
| Crescenzo wrote: |
just going on what i've read/been told/etc.
didn't peter keen revise his 4 zone model to 6 after looking at how pros on the continent trained (when boardman was with Gan)? - and found they didn't train in Z3/4 and those zones weren't benefitial in any significant way? |
I'd love to see the full story on this - I've heard something like it, but only as rumour.
| Quote: |
| i know 4th cats who have structured training programs and still havent got any points!!!! whats that all about?! |
That's people like me, always destined by genetics (as you alluded to before) to be useless, but want to be as little useless as possible.
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"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong." H. L. Mencken
"Everything in war is simple, but the simplest thing is difficult." Carl Von Clausewitz |
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Badger
E, Gold
Joined: 14 Jun 2004
Posts: 2822
Location: Trying not to say 'basically'
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Crescenzo wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| Crescenzo wrote: |
"tester zone" - just under or over your AT.
it's not endurance training and it's not stressing your body enough to improve significantly. |
How has that been established?
| Quote: |
| in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do. |
I'll try again. Why doesn't it matter what training you do if you can't finish an Elite race? |
i'm not qualified on this - just going on what i've read/been told/etc.
didn't peter keen revise his 4 zone model to 6 after looking at how pros on the continent trained (when boardman was with Gan)? - and found they didn't train in Z3/4 and those zones weren't benefitial in any significant way? |
In my experience training at Z3/4 doesn't improve your fitness and just makes you tired. Best to ride at 1/2 and then do some hard efforts/intervals at Z5/6 but don't do three hours at 85% for training.
I once heard someone say that amateurs train too hard and race too easy and for pro's it's the other way round.
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scott
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 99
Location: Lincs
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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[In my experience training at Z3/4 doesn't improve your fitness and just makes you tired. quote]
I agree it doesn't improve CV fittness a great deal, but its good for endurance.
In a race you probably spend most of your time in Z3/4, so why not train at that level?[/quote] |
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incitatus
E, Silver
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 708
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Crescenzo wrote: |
"tester zone" - just under or over your AT.
it's not endurance training and it's not stressing your body enough to improve significantly.
anyways, in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do.
i'd only recommend 6 zone training if you're a full time cyclist and you're on the bike every day. |
It was my impression from trainright.com and published articles that Carmichael has shown this training zone, especially at just below AT power, to be excellent and prescribes a lot if this type of training to his riders who target the one day races; the point being that it does indeed stress the system, increase power at AT and give significant improvements without going anaerobic thus allowing one to train often at this intensity (on top of a good base naturally). |
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Pocket Rocket
E, Silver
Joined: 22 Nov 2003
Posts: 1509
Location: Herts
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| Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Badger wrote: |
| Crescenzo wrote: |
| Roy Gardiner wrote: |
| Crescenzo wrote: |
"tester zone" - just under or over your AT.
it's not endurance training and it's not stressing your body enough to improve significantly. |
How has that been established?
| Quote: |
| in my opinion if you're not good enough to finish an Elite race in this country it won't really matter what training you do. |
I'll try again. Why doesn't it matter what training you do if you can't finish an Elite race? |
i'm not qualified on this - just going on what i've read/been told/etc.
didn't peter keen revise his 4 zone model to 6 after looking at how pros on the continent trained (when boardman was with Gan)? - and found they didn't train in Z3/4 and those zones weren't benefitial in any significant way? |
ah, thats what ya doin 
In my experience training at Z3/4 doesn't improve your fitness and just makes you tired. Best to ride at 1/2 and then do some hard efforts/intervals at Z5/6 but don't do three hours at 85% for training.
I once heard someone say that amateurs train too hard and race too easy and for pro's it's the other way round. |
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baz
E, Silver
Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Posts: 1257
Location: trying to avoid the stackups at hillingdon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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I get out on a sunday, when i can. What zone is that.
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training! what training ,just race yourself fit |
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qcscmh
World Champ
Joined: 06 Jun 2002
Posts: 14071
Location: Not on the Bike
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baz
E, Silver
Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Posts: 1257
Location: trying to avoid the stackups at hillingdon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:42 pm Post subject: |
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| qcscmh wrote: |
| baz wrote: |
| I get out on a sunday, when i can. What zone is that. |
you only have 2 zones Barry, z1 all of race except finish z2 |
Not to sure about this zone's lark. I'm not to sure if thats an insult
or not. 
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training! what training ,just race yourself fit |
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metroid
Elite Poster
Joined: 04 Nov 2004
Posts: 227
Location: Sydney
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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can anyone post a url to describe 4 vs 6 .. i just checked the interview posted here with Dr. Alejandro Lucia who talked about 5 vs 3 .. http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=1346 !! //
actaually the feeling at the bottom of this article resonates..
"I get the sense that most of us have swung from one extreme of riding by “feel” to the other extreme of becoming robotic slaves to our heart rate or power monitors and ignoring our inner sensations."
i havn't ridden with a computer since the beginning of october and won't till january. i know i rode roughly 150km yesterday in roughly 5 hours, but i was listening to my body all the way, learning how it responds to what i do, and that's what it's all about for me right now. |
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atrant
Cat 2 Groupie
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 33
Location: The Black Country
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 11:07 am Post subject: |
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Once you have decided on your prefered number of zones/levels how do you establish your own actual limits?
The original 4 levels system uses a principle of MaxHR minus a set number, so Level 3 is MaxHR minus 25-15, which is all very straightforward, but with the 3 to 6 zone systems that work on % do you take a literal 60-70% of your MaxHR, or use a formula such as the one recommended by Polar that factors in your resting heart rate, the 60-70% zone using this formula results in a very different heart rate from just taking 60-70% of MaxHR which seems to result in heart rate zones that are much too low. |
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