| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Do you think Indurains was doped..... |
| Without a doubt - he was so phick he would never know what they were pumping him with...... |
|
80% |
[ 40 ] |
| No - he was just a physical phenomenom bought on slowly by Echavarri (sp..) |
|
20% |
[ 10 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 50 |
|
| Author |
Message |
RicStern
E, Silver
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1343
Location: Stoke on Trent
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| sterudsdad wrote: |
| In small doses salbutamol has no performance enhancing qualities except for people with asthma. Sport tends to induce asthma because of the need to breathe heavily for long periods of time hence the inflammation of the airways. In large doses salbutamol has proven anabolic properties being similar to anabolic steroids but the doses are very large. Because of this it may be a masking agent in some people for some anabolic substances. |
There is some evidence that beta2 agonists are performance enhancing in normal doses (i can't recall if it was with salbutamol or terbutaline).
In large doses there is plenty of evidence that beta2 agonists cause repartioning in some animals. Anecdotally, body builders use beta2 agonists for cutting up.
Ric
_________________
www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Richard-Stern-Training/53398232220#
http://rst-training.*CENSORED*/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Rich Hill
Tour Winner
Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 15188
Location: Coventry
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RicStern wrote: |
Resting HR and lung volume are of virtually no interest whatsoever. A high VO2max is important, as it's the rate limiting mechanism in endurance exercise. I have no idea on Webb, and while it's highly likely that Yates had/has a high VO2max it wouldn't be in the same league as Indurain.
Ric |
That first sentence is perhaps a little too flippant Ric - for a grown human being to have a low resting pulse and the ability to rev the heart that has the low resting pulse to high rates are indicative of a fit human - as were also reported with Indurain.
There are some illnesses where a low resting pulse is reported but in context I think that large lungs and a slow pulse are very good inidicative signs of fitness.
Sure you can have a low pulse and massive lungs - but if you are unable to absorb the oxygen that is coming in then its a waste of time true.
But again - put it into context - he WAS able to absorb a lot of the oxygen that was incoming - so it all goes to make a very interesting picture.
I like it how he and I both suffer from stomach displacement when under high levels of physical duress. His caused through exercise... mine through the lack of it.. 
_________________
Imagination is the war against reality.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stretch armstrong
Div 3 Pro
Joined: 14 Apr 2003
Posts: 4350
Location: Doncaster (sleaze capital o the north)
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:34 pm Post subject: |
|
|
RE the low pulse, maybe he just had a fast watch ?
_________________
lector benevole absit invidia
Putting the dross back in Clay Cross (RT) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dr RosenRosen
Elite Poster
Joined: 04 Jul 2007
Posts: 200
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 9:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Rich Hill wrote: |
| RicStern wrote: |
Resting HR and lung volume are of virtually no interest whatsoever. A high VO2max is important, as it's the rate limiting mechanism in endurance exercise. I have no idea on Webb, and while it's highly likely that Yates had/has a high VO2max it wouldn't be in the same league as Indurain.
Ric |
That first sentence is perhaps a little too flippant Ric - for a grown human being to have a low resting pulse and the ability to rev the heart that has the low resting pulse to high rates are indicative of a fit human - as were also reported with Indurain.
There are some illnesses where a low resting pulse is reported but in context I think that large lungs and a slow pulse are very good inidicative signs of fitness.
Sure you can have a low pulse and massive lungs - but if you are unable to absorb the oxygen that is coming in then its a waste of time true.
But again - put it into context - he WAS able to absorb a lot of the oxygen that was incoming - so it all goes to make a very interesting picture.
I like it how he and I both suffer from stomach displacement when under high levels of physical duress. His caused through exercise... mine through the lack of it.. |
Mr Hill
Ric is not being flippant. Mrs RosenRosen has never done a hard days exercise (except in bed ... ) and her resting pulse is 45. She smokes like a trooper but still blows the peakflow meter at Dr RosenRosen's surgery off the scale.
You need to stop believing the old balony, start training and stop eating imho ...
_________________
"night fever, night fever, we know how to do it!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RicStern
E, Silver
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 1343
Location: Stoke on Trent
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="Rich Hill"]
| RicStern wrote: |
There are some illnesses where a low resting pulse is reported but in context I think that large lungs and a slow pulse are very good inidicative signs of fitness.
|
they're not. Lung size (volume) is essentially linked to how big you are. While resting HR generally decreases with increasing fitness, it really means nothing (as can be seen by the fact that my resting HR is likely the same as most div 1 pros, and my fitness is nothing like theirs, mores the pity)
| Quote: |
Sure you can have a low pulse and massive lungs - but if you are unable to absorb the oxygen that is coming in then its a waste of time true.
|
if you mean utilise the oxygen, then, maximally, that's Vo2max (which as i pointed out is important)
ric
_________________
www.cyclecoach.com
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Richard-Stern-Training/53398232220#
http://rst-training.*CENSORED*/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Rich Hill wrote: |
Sure you can have a low pulse and massive lungs - but if you are unable to absorb the oxygen that is coming in then its a waste of time true.
But again - put it into context - he WAS able to absorb a lot of the oxygen that was incoming - so it all goes to make a very interesting picture. |
David Walsh has an interesting take on Indurain's physical abilities in part two of that interview I linked to earlier. (See below). He points out the prior to the EPO/ blood doping era the good climbers were almost always lightly framed riders, having the classical 'climber' physiology. Even 'big' riders like Merckx were, when compared to today's riders, lightly muscled. Just look at any photo of professional riders from the 60's and 70's as compared to those of today, most look like juniors!
Walsh argues that this was because with a naturally-limited VO2 max, having excess muscle mass is no advantage, just dead weight. (One might make a comparison with a racing car engine- having more CC's is no advantage if the supply of air and fuel is restricted). However, once EPO came on the scene, so allowing the riders blood oxygen supply to be boosted to an unnatural level, those large, muscular riders like Indurain (and Ullrich) suddenly had a big advantage, being able to use their musculature to produce additional power for an extended period. Hence all the 'classical' climbers found themselves to obsolete almost overnight.
As to doping with Indurain's team, didn't someone post a link on here to a story about how every member of the team had haemocrit just a couple of tenths of a percent below the UCI's 50% limit, something which is hardly likely to happen naturally.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Bob and Paul spent over two hours interviewing David Walsh about his love of cycling, his history covering the sport and writing about his heroes and what we will learn from this new book about the culture of doping that is so prevalent in the sport. If you've got a long run or indoor cycling workout planned, we recommend podcasting this conversation. It's pretty eye opening, to say the least."
Part one:
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=150
Part two:
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=151
"Greg LeMond has been a lightening rod for controversy for the past few years. The three time Tour de France champion and the first American to win the world's most famous bike race has been very matter-of-fact in his opinion that dru-gs are prevalent in the peloton. Greg took over an hour with Bob and Paul to go through his career and why he feels so strongly that the sport that he loves so dearly needs to clean up it's act now."
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=21
"Betsy Andreu has been a lightening rod of controversy for the past few years. A primary source for David Walsh and his book entitled 'From Lance to Landis', the wife of former Lance Armstrong teammate Frankie Andreu has a lot of opinions on dru-gs and the sport of cycling. She watched on television as her husband lead the peloton up a beyond category climb during the 1999 Tour de France but instead of being excited, she was upset because she knew immediately that Frankie had gone to the dark side and was now using dru-gs. Enjoy!"
http://www.competitorradio.com/details.php?show=154 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
So Walsh is now a sports physiology expert now. Merckx , Hinault, et al were not small riders at all.
_________________
www.kentonrc.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Des wrote: |
| So Walsh is now a sports physiology expert now. Merckx , Hinault, et al were not small riders at all. |
'Big' Eddy Merckx, built like a rugby player he was...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:17 am Post subject: |
|
|
If you found a similar pic of Indurain, apart from the height difference, he wouldn't look dissimilar.
_________________
www.kentonrc.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Des wrote: |
| If you found a similar pic of Indurain, apart from the height difference, he wouldn't look dissimilar. |
I doubt that...
Indurain...
Merckx...
Indurain...
Merckx..
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Merckx...
Indurain...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
martin smith
World Champ
Joined: 09 Jun 2003
Posts: 12187
Location: shoehorning kittens into jars
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:13 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Howard Peel wrote: |
Merckx...
Indurain...
|
christine Ohuruogu:
makes em both look like stick insects.
_________________
Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and you have their shoes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Merckx...
 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
So still no conclusive proof then Howard?
Remind me which rider was convicted of doping again?
_________________
www.kentonrc.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Chris Sidwells
E, Silver
Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 591
Location: Devon
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
On Merckx's right is Vittorio Adorni, and on his right is Ghent track impressario Jan de Papiers. The soigneur with the bike is Charlie Ticklebutt. Its armsitice day 1968 and Anderlect were playing at home. Merckx raced in a floodlit cyclocross around Roger de Vlaeminck's allotment later that evening.
Where's my prize Roy? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Howard Peel
E, Gold
Joined: 20 Nov 2005
Posts: 2542
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Des wrote: |
| So still no conclusive proof then Howard? |
Well, my eyes tell me that Indurain was built like brick out-house compared to Merckx. If I were you I would pm Martin Smith pretty sharpish for a professional consultation!
| Des wrote: |
| Remind me which rider was convicted of doping again? |
I thought the issue was which rider benefited from the use of EPO... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Legs
E, Gold
Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 3046
Location: Sierra Tango One Zero
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chris Sidwells wrote: |
| On Merckx's right is Vittorio Adorni, and on his right is Ghent track impressario Jan de Papiers. The soigneur with the bike is Charlie Ticklebutt. Its armsitice day 1968 and Anderlect were playing at home. Merckx raced in a floodlit cyclocross around Roger de Vlaeminck's allotment later that evening. |
Great name 
_________________
"Legs is an agitator and a Internet stalker who regular breaks the rules of forum etiquette." - Jane Belleville |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Des
Moderator
Joined: 19 Apr 2002
Posts: 16900
Location: Harrow
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
No the photos only show that Indurain's lean limbs appear more cut, due to improved camera focus and the timing of the photo. It's well documented that the size of his lungs displaced his stomach. If you had a photo of him off the bike, with torso exposed I still doubt that you would notice much different. Same with LA.
If EPO was around in the 60's 70's do you think someone who was prepared to use other PEDs would not have also used EPO?
_________________
www.kentonrc.co.uk |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
hed
World Champ
Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 12377
Location: on my hoods.
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 12:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Chris Sidwells wrote: |
On Merckx's right is Vittorio Adorni, and on his right is Ghent track impressario Jan de Papiers. The soigneur with the bike is Charlie Ticklebutt. Its armsitice day 1968 and Anderlect were playing at home. Merckx raced in a floodlit cyclocross around Roger de Vlaeminck's allotment later that evening.
|
_________________
Team VeloRiders- like Rock Racing, only far more perverted. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baz
E, Silver
Joined: 21 Feb 2004
Posts: 1257
Location: trying to avoid the stackups at hillingdon
|
| Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I used to know a girl with a big pair of lungs, she would do a turn on the front, but never won a race.
_________________
training! what training ,just race yourself fit |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
